[John Kirk]

Do you know the cutoff date?  If a course misses that date, is it eligible for the next year?

I believe it is March 31st.  Ballyneal was open to visiting raters early this year for eligibility purposes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Lastly, many of the courses discussed here loose out to more modern designs which many of the GD panelists prefer.  Two years ago Black Rock in Idaho beating Friars Head was mind blowing, at least to me.  After attending the panelist summitt last year I understood much better the reason why a modern Engh or Fazio course will almost always beat a Doak or C&C course.

Joel,

I know you're a gentleman so you probably won't share, but I have to ask anyway.  

Why??  

[Kevin Edwards]

What are the major contenders for Best New in each category on this years ballot for Golf Digest?

Cary, I realize I don't know you but from what I've heard and read why don't you just ask Bette about this.. shouldnt she know, I don't understand..  I'm sure you have them all lined up for play...

[Adam Clayman]

Mike, I can't speak for Joel, and I certainly have never discussed this with him, but I suspect his answer to you would be, sophistication.

That's right everyone, C&C, Doak and a few others, build more thoughtful sophisticated designs.

Let the arrows fly.

[Alan Carter]

Is the Frederica course at Sea Island on this years list?

The new Donald Steel course in Primland Virginia.

Will Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison win best renovation for the work at The Homestead?  

Frederica is not on this year's list.

In Virginia there is a Nicklaus, a Norman, a Foster, a Weiman/Green and two remodels by Dye and Associates on the list.  No Steel.

[Tom Huckaby]

I wasn't at the summit... but in talking to others, well... methinks Adam has it correct.  The vast majority of GD raters prefer more obvious bang and less subtlety and from what I hear, this was proven out at the summit.

Hell I am a GD rater, so sling away.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Joel S said, "After attending the panelist summitt last year I understood much better the reason why a modern Engh or Fazio course will almost always beat a Doak or C&C course."

To echo Mike C -- please explain.

How bout the simple fact that Engh is no less talented than the others mentioned ad naseum on GCA. I don't mean to suggest he hits home runs with all of his designs -- no one does and that includes the "preferred" types here on GCA, but the man does have considerable talent and some of his work is grossly undervalued here because so few people have played a good smattering of his work.

I don't believe that any person has leg-up or lock on getting attention. If such publications / raters, et al, take that approach then they are only narrow-minded in their understanding of what constitutes superior design.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt - of course Joel can (and now ought to) speak for himself, but might you not consider this is roughly 2% about the architects, 98% about the raters?

I had thought you'd eat this up.  But then again you have several axes to grind.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

There's no doubt that certain panels have a PREDISPOSITION in what they like and dislike. You can see it in the results.

I just think that if people -- Joel and others -- who really believe this and operate as such -- then the results will continue to go in the direction they do.

I have no pre-set opinion on when I play a new course -- it's a completely blank page and I fill it in with what I see from the latest work -- I don't add on points from previous designs or believe that a person who has done outstanding work from a few years back automatically deserves sainthood for all such future projects.

I guess what I try to do doesn't happen with others. So be it.

[DMoriarty]

How bout the simple fact that Engh is no less talented than the others mentioned ad naseum on GCA. I don't mean to suggest he hits home runs with all of his designs -- no one does and that includes the "preferred" types here on GCA, but the man does have considerable talent and some of his work is grossly undervalued here because so few people have played a good smattering of his work.

I don't believe that any person has leg-up or lock on getting attention. If such publications / raters, et al, take that approach then they are only narrow-minded in their understanding of what constitutes superior design.

Matt,  Are you on Jim's payroll again?   Say what you want about Jim Engh's work generally-- I havent played a "good smattering of his courses" so I've little ground to disagree.   But you've lost your mind if you sincerely believe that Black Rock was a "superior design" to Friars Head.  As I have said before, such choices completely undercut any legitimacy these joke magazine ratings might still have.  

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Yes, Jim pays me tons and tons of dough for my comments. How often does C&C send you a check for yours?

You're the guy who judges Engh from one design and then has the temerity to tell me I'm the one who's totally lost it. Really?

I never said Black Rock is superior to Friar's Head -- please show me the post -- MY POST -- not your baseless barking. I liked Black Rock very much and placed it within the context of all the Engh layouts I have played which is far more than your portfolio of his courses contains at the present moment.

End of story ...

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt - this is why you are you, and GD raters are what they are.

Bowing out now.  The big guns have arrived.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

I have no pet peeve with either of the panels -- they are what they are for a host of different reasons. I said so be it previously and I don't need to go on and on with the same drivel from big guns or small guns.

This year's Best New Listing will be interesting to observe.

Like you -- I'm done on this one too.

[Steve Lapper]

More importantly, doesn't this whole list thing SCREAM IRRELEVANCY if the likes of Bayonne, Sebonack, et.al are left off??

GD, GW, GM......all crocks of crap with no real baseline objectivity or relevancy...

I'm done ranting now...whew!

[Tom Huckaby]

Steve - separate question:  how relevant are lists that include places like Sebonack that no one outside of the privileged few will ever play?

To me any "best" list is a curiousity at most - interesting, but basically irrelevant.

Best Course You Can Play - now that's relevant.

TH

[Alan Carter]

Do you know the cutoff date?  If a course misses that date, is it eligible for the next year?

I believe it is March 31st.  Ballyneal was open to visiting raters early this year for eligibility purposes.

It needs to have opened somewhere between May 1st, 2005 and April 30th, 2006 to be considered.  The course also needs to want to be considered.  

[John Kavanaugh]

More importantly, doesn't this whole list thing SCREAM IRRELEVANCY if the likes of Bayonne, Sebonack, et.al are left off??

GD, GW, GM......all crocks of crap with no real baseline objectivity or relevancy...

I'm done ranting now...whew!

Damn Slapper...I would have bet my left nut you were a GolfWeek rater..

[Alan Carter]

More importantly, doesn't this whole list thing SCREAM IRRELEVANCY if the likes of Bayonne, Sebonack, et.al are left off??

GD, GW, GM......all crocks of crap with no real baseline objectivity or relevancy...

I'm done ranting now...whew!

Steve, both Bayonne and Sebonack will be eligible for Best New next year as they both opened after April 30th of 2006.  After that, if they decide they would like to be considered, I'm sure you will see them near the top of the list in the January 2008 Golf Digest

[Steve Lapper]

Tom,

    You are right(as can be the case every few hundred posts or so )...Best Course You Can Play is indeed relevant, thus my point should be, and is, limited to private courses.

Jaka,

     Sorry to have disappointed you, but glad to know you will be complete down there on my account   I actually find little, if any use for ratings, other than my own personal lists of most fun, most playable, hardest, best food, least interesting, most overrated, etc...

Alan,

    Using artificial cut-off dates and limitations based on the "desire" of those courses to be rated just further illustrates my point that ratings on privates, as such, is pure bullshit and little more than another commercial proxy for style over substance.

[DMoriarty]

. . . I liked Black Rock very much and placed it within the context of all the Engh layouts I have played which is far more than your portfolio of his courses contains at the present moment.

 [my bold]

Matt,  
Odd that you won't let me judge Black Rock based on its own merits, and that you knock me for not putting the course "within the context of all the Engh layouts" you have played.

What happened to your patronizing self-aggrandizement from immediately above?

I have no pre-set opinion on when I play a new course -- it's a completely blank page and I fill it in with what I see from the latest work -- I don't add on points from previous designs or believe that a person who has done outstanding work from a few years back automatically deserves sainthood for all such future projects.

Which is it Matt?  Do we look at the course within the "context" of body of work or is each course a "blank page?"   As much as you'd like to, you cant have it both ways.  

Anyway, If you care to read my post you'll see that I did not judge Engh based on one course.  I judged Black Rock with a blank page, based on Black Rock alone.  And Black Rock-- based on nothing but Black Rock-- is a joke.  No matter who designed it.

I am glad that you at least agree with me that Black Rock is not in the same league with Friars Head.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

    You are right(as can be the case every few hundred posts or so )...Best Course You Can Play is indeed relevant, thus my point should be, and is, limited to private courses.

Audible yuks there - well jousted.  And hell I really have only the tiniest of pick-axes to grind here anyway.  

[Gene Greco]

What are the major contenders for Best New in each category on this years ballot for Golf Digest?

Cary, I realize I don't know you but from what I've heard and read why don't you just ask Bette about this.. shouldnt she know, I don't understand..  I'm sure you have them all lined up for play...

 

[Doug Ralston]

Sorry to say it here, but Art Hills is gonna have a very strong candidate for the Best New Private list.

Old Stone; in Bowling Green KY will be considered, i would venture. Kentucky has been on the list for Best Affordable for years with their 'Signature Series courses. Now at last a private will further enhance KY's reputation for high quality courses [quite deserved, I might add].

[Matt_Ward]

David:

You can judge Black Rock by any means you want -- clearly limited I might add. I simply stated it would help to have some context in which your remarks come from. That's assuming you care for such matters.

I think when one reviews courses you do it from both perspectives. From what the person has done beforehand and how the new layout is a testament to either further improvement, a leveling off or an outright fallback.

I don't see the manner by which I outlined as being opposites -- they work in tandem. Clearly, you don't know Engh and can only harp on what you believe to be are the shortcomings of Black Rock. I disagree with your assessment strongly.

So be it -- let's move on as this conversation bores me because it's the same tired points I have refuted before. Next subject please ...

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt - I don't mean to harp on you, and I ask this purely for education - when it comes to the course rating game, I consider you the guru.

So... re this:

David:

I think when one reviews courses you do it from both perspectives. From what the person has done beforehand and how the new layout is a testament to either further improvement, a leveling off or an outright fallback.

Why does it matter what an architect has done before?  I can see that being very important if we were trying to judge the work of the architect and/or assess his development.  But for purposes of this magazine crap, we're assessing/rating golf courses, no?  And thus why does anything other than the course at hand matter at all?

TH

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