[Jordan Wall]

14th at ANGC. (Though it originally had a large bunker along the right side of the LZ.)

What makes it great is the hole's contouring.

Anything right of center off the tee will bounce right off the fairway.

The greatness of the contouring of the green needs no discussion. You'd better approach from the correct angle (depending on the pin) or you got no chance.

Bob

The 14th at Augusta is the poster child for this concept.

A great green can create interest back to the tee.

Why arent more holes created like this?

It would be cool to have a hole dominated by the contours of the earth, and nothing else, yet still be challenging.

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

We call it St. Andrews.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

We call it St. Andrews.

Kyle,

We call that 400 years ago

[Garland Bayley]

Jordan,

Perhaps you can tell us about the contours of the earth at Tumble Creek.

[Dave Bourgeois]

How many good sites are really available where you could do this, and how do current maintainance practices fit in? First you got to have good earth to make it work.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Perhaps you can tell us about the contours of the earth at Tumble Creek.

It was awesome.
Minimal.

I better pose a better question though.
We have ben discussing the best holes without hazards or anything lately.
I want to know why more are not ebing created.

I am pretty sure every hole at Tumble had a hazard on it.

[Scott Witter]

Guys:

I am sort of surprised that Tom Doak, Jeff B and others haven't spoken up on this yet and I am not here to market their work or C&C's, but hasn't this actually been done at Pac Dunes, Bandon Trails, Sand Hills, Kidnappers, Sebonack?  There are others, but you get my point.  It seems that there has been much discussion from many who have played all these courses and from some of the architect's themselves that designed them that little was done by man and most was simply found in the earth..aside from the bunkers, but hey even the Old Course does have a few interesting and worth while sand boxes?

Kyle is quite right in the purest form, but in modern times the newer courses seem to be very close to what Jordan is asking.

[Michael Dugger]

Let me pose this question:  

If a golf course is not built in sand dune country, how can we expect the virgin landscape to have natural undulation???

The answer is we can't, and since very few courses are built over naturally undulating terrain, we must create it by hand.

Which is difficult......and expensive.

They did it at Whistling Straits......they did it at Kingsbarns.

But it is dang tough to get artificial undulation to look like natural undulation.  Only the most gifted of shapers can get this correct.

IMHO, this is why we do not see more golf holes of this nature.

[Ryan Farrow]

Michael didn't most golden age courses achieve this without great soil?

[Scott Witter]

I guess I am also not convinced that the 14th @ ANCC wasn't shaped to some degree to be the way it is now or very close to it.

Reading back through Pat's comment he doesn't speak of the pure, virgin, or original contour, but just the contour for what it is now and has been for quite some time.  I agree and Pat makes a great point, but he is talking about great contours and their influence on play, in what I believe to be close at least to their original condition, or at least not totally manipulated to death by the dozer blade. That is what all of the courses mentioned offer as do many other old great classics.  From tee to green and yes standing on the tee they make us think...a great green does demand our attention all the way back to the tee, isn't that the way it should be?

[Scott Witter]

Ryan:

I agree with your thought to the extent that on heavy soils, let's just say not on sand soils, it is certainly possible if you actually have a good to great site with the right movement, but in those types of soils, they tend to have sharper/quicker changes in grade and plenty of rocks and boulders.  While the overall movement and even plenty of smaller areas with wonderful character may be great to utilize for design and play, often times the edges just need to be eased-off slightly to make them maintainable, still completely retaining their character and by no means making it smooth or flat.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Scott,

I don't know if 14 has ever been shaped either, but the basic diagonal ridge had to have basically been there.  And I don't know why most sites wouldn't have slopes somewhere that could be effectively put into the design.

Many gca's believe that such contours "hurt the golfer" and that the course should be receptive and not hurt the golfer that way. My mentors believed that subtle contours that deflected a ball that landed in the fw off the fw were in effect blind hazards, and didn't do them. And most golfers are somehow believing (as they do with greens) that if it lands there, it ought to stay there, I guess like coming home and plopping on the couch to watch golf channel for the night......for many, a shot that is on the target and then leaves it honks them off to no end.  For most courses, the idea of anything like that slowing down play is abominable (sp - been a long time since I used that word!)

On the other hand, if the fairway is wide enough, and a bunker might have been put wherever the ground slope is with a narrower fairway, then the hazard value isn't any different, and the golfer learns his way around the course.  And all a more natural and cost effective solution on most sites than an artifical bunker, even if there is grading to enhance the desired effect.  

Given the cost effectiveness of no fw bunkers, It think a return to different areas of fw being targets and others being hazards is probably in the cards.

[Scott Witter]

Ryan:

Sorry, I forgot to also say that yes, this is what many of the old classic architect's and builder's did in the past.  To me, it is one of the first characteristics I see and identify with when I see an old classic for the first time.  But it is also a reflection in many cases and a result of the equipment they used and had available to build with.

[Scott Witter]

Jeff:

It's interesting you should mention this fairway stuff because just this afternoon while conducting a focus group tour on a club where I am consulting a couple members in the group asked (complained more like it) me a question about just such a feature/anomily in the 9th fairway near the green.

I absolutely love those little quirks on the "all american" perfectly smooth and flat fairways and I told them I wasn't going to change any of them, it is your responsibility to play with them, around them, short of them or over them, that is just they way it is.  Not unlike a bunker that could be there as you say, figure out how to deal with them just as they are any other part or feature on the course.  Learn the course, hell they play it 3 to 4 times a week as a member!

I am happy to see that you don't follow in the same footsteps as your mentor!

"Given the cost effectiveness of no fw bunkers, It think a return to different areas of fw being targets and others being hazards is probably in the cards."  Jeff, I believe this is already happening with many of the courses I noted and perhaps maybe even some of yours

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Jordan,

We call it St. Andrews.

How about Olympic Lake?  One fairway bunker.  no water.

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne:  Lots of trees and rough, though.  

Scott:  When we built High Pointe, we left the same kind of unevenness in the fairways that the superintendent and I knew from Crystal Downs.  Most people thought we were nuts, and still do to this day!  I think two of the main reasons "imperfections" have been taken out of modern fairways are that contractors want their work to be seen as perfect, and that golfers don't want a bumpy cart ride up the fairway.

Jeff is right on, I do think that modern architects seem more reluctant to use interesting contours in the fairways than they are on the greens.  If it is for the reason he suggests, then it's a question of theory trumping experience, because Augusta and all the links have great examples of natural fairway contours influencing play.

In fact, the last time I was at Royal Melbourne I was mesmerized by all the little contouring that was done to the approaches, thirty yards or so back off the greens.  I'd never noticed how much contouring was done there, and it was obviously artificial as many small bowls were created in the process.  It seemed that maybe this was done to keep some water and some grass on the approach in dry times.

Jordan:  There are several holes at Tumble Creek with only one or two bunkers.  I thought one of the best uses of natural contour was on the par-3 2nd hole, with a crowned fairway short of the green, that bowl on the right of the green behind the single bunker, and all the contour within the green itself.  And that hole was nominated by somebody as one of my worst!

[Jeff_Brauer]

The contractors may want to smooth the work out, but if the superintendent is on site, he may also be worried about mowing those little contours evenly, without scalping, etc.  Plus, if you are grading all the fairways, or even just prepping them for grass, its real easy to take those subtle contours out.

From an architectural perspective, its hard to do if they don't exist naturally. I will bet most fairway grading is done for vision or drainage.  Where its done for play, its often to grind out a flat area as a premium area, not to rumple up everything to create funky lies.  A lot of that comes from the plan view mentality - "seeing" a prime landing zone on plan and defining it by leveling it.

[JMorgan]

The contractors may want to smooth the work out, but if the superintendent is on site, he may also be worried about mowing those little contours evenly, without scalping, etc.  Plus, if you are grading all the fairways, or even just prepping them for grass, its real easy to take those subtle contours out.

Jeff, Tom, isn't there a way to convey the design importance of these features to the superintendent and maintenance team... that they need (or you will help them figure out a way) to keep those contours?   I guess my question is, What happens when you as the gca says, "I put these features into the design; they are as important as the green contours or bunkers etc., please do not scalp them away or you will affect the way the course will play in a manner I had not intended...."?

[Jeff_Brauer]

James,

Regarding construction, I once had two fairways on a course and I wrote all over the plan "These contours to remain" and similar. When I got out there, the contractor had taken the liberty of shaping the area for me to "improve it".  They had worked for so many architect that typically grade everywhere that they were in the habit of stripping topsoil right off the bat because it cost them more to try to save it, and then find later that the gca wanted to remove it and shape.

As to maintenance, its a different story, but some supers lose sleep over an imperfect cut, whereas I wouldn't.  I suspect they think golfers would be critical.

[peter_p]

The 6th fairway at Tualatin was carved out of a douglas fir forest many years ago. They must have done something weird with the stumps because it evolved into a endless sea of pockets. They created havoc with stances and bounces until some had the bright(?) idea to deposit aeration cores in them.

[Jordan Wall]

I lied.

#7 at Tumble didnt have any hazards.  (Right Mr. Doak?)
If it did, I dont remember them.

Anyways, it is IMO the best par three on the course.  The green has massive undualtions which you can tell were not contrived.  It was already there.   To get the ball close,m you have to use the earth.
This was a great hole and what made the hole from tee to green was the green.
It was great!

[Jon Wiggett]

Jeff,

It is true, there are many supers who think that the course should be built only for ease of maintenance.
If however the Super is a player who has seen and played enough of the more classical courses he will have enough feeling for the game as to accept that an interresting course is not always easy to maintain but that ease of maintenance is of second importance.
For me I maintain a course so that when I play it I enjoy it.

[Scott Witter]

ToM;

You bring up an interesting thought.  "In fact, the last time I was at Royal Melbourne I was mesmerized by all the little contouring that was done to the approaches, thirty yards or so back off the greens.  I'd never noticed how much contouring was done there, and it was obviously artificial as many small bowls were created in the process.  It seemed that maybe this was done to keep some water and some grass on the approach in dry times."

Do you think it really was to keep a bit of water in the approach or with the ground game in hand, could it have been to soften the approaches?  Then, why not do the same in the landing areas?  I'm curious.

Sure golfers do want the smooth ride on the cart, but unless we are on site often or have someone monitoring the process, contractors and the equipment they use make it too easy to blow away great contours and subtlities in a single pass and over the course of a day when not on site, much great character can be lost.

Your use of the word "imperfections" is also fresh in my mind.  Last fall on a recent bunker reconstruction/redesign project I changed the character of the bunkers from municipal looking at what is a nice private club to something that was intended to be old school classic looking and playing and hand crafted.  When the laborers went ahead and began finishing after the shaping was done, they kept making them smooth flowing and perfect...it drove me nuts and I kept going back to the foreman and telling him to direct them not to do this, but rather to leave all the "imperfections" resulting from shaping.  Basically just pack the slopes and faces to stabilize them and drop the sod on them.  Unfortunately, they had been trained otherwise through working with other architects and they just couldn't force themselves to change.  So I said screw it and kicked them out of every bunker after shaping and I gave them a good roughing up with a shovel and finished them my self.  In the end I got what I wanted and had a ball doing it!

[Tom_Doak]

Jordan:  That par-3 7th hole had two bunkers, way short right and front left.  You just don't remember them because you made birdie ... and now you've exposed yourself as one of those players who likes the holes he played best.  Some penance for you!

Scott W:  When we were working at Sebonack the crew did a heck of a job of leaving in AND creating micro-contours in the fairways -- drainage wasn't much of an issue because there was a fair amount of tilt to start with, and it is all really sandy.  Anyway, some on the Nicklaus Design side of things thought we weren't doing a good enough job at finish work.  Then Jack comes out for a site visit with several associates, and as we are heading to the first tee he stops at the ninth green and points at all the little uneven contours coming off the green and says, [paraphrasing]:  "You see this?  All these little imperfections are great.  We have been building stuff too smooth and too perfect, this is more like the old courses overseas.  

I think Jim Lipe nearly fainted.

As for monitoring the work to prevent mishaps, that's why I am such a control freak.  For example, today, I have three of my associates plus two interns on site in Scotland, and two associates and three interns on site in Montana.  They are the ones doing all the shaping work, if we want the contractor to do grading work the lead associate watches them do it.

[BCrosby]

This won't be news to TomD, but if you reread MacK's The Spirit of St Andrews, great architecture for MacK is all about contouring, contouring and contouring.

It's a theme he returns to in paragraph after paragraph. So much so that after a while you start to think that he really means it.

Bob

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