[Andy Doyle]

I would vote for the 5th hole at Belfair East. It is a terrific short two-shot hole with an outstanding green. The graphic does not do the hole justice as there is lots of movement in the fairway and a great rise in the front of the green that can hide pin positions from view when they are located on the front of the green. I played Belfair East in the SC Senior Amateur and there were a number of birdies on this hole... but, a lot of "others," too. Lot's of fun!!!

I was thinking of a short par 4 at White Columns that I remembered liking - check out #15 compared to this one at Belfair:

http://www.whitecolumnscountryclub.com/ShowSite.asp?menu=golfcourse&nav=holebyhole

Andy

[Dave Bourgeois]

Wow Aidan those are awesome photos.  I too love the look of that bunker on 15 @ Victoria National.  Since I live close by I wonder if there is any love for the holes at Hudson National.  The photos on the HN site look great, but I am curious to how they play on such a tough site.

[Michael Whitaker]

Andy - The holes are similar, but I like the one at Belfair better because: 1) You can play around the corner if you must (no forced carry) 2) The tee shot is close enough to the green to temp some players who really shouldn't try 3) The green at Belfair has a lot of movement and slope in it and the bunkers are deep and very much something to be avoided.

[Michael Whitaker]

Love the steps in the VN 15 bunker. I hadn't seen that bunker style out of Fazio, but it does confirm my experience that there is a lot more Fazio variety out there than this board will probably give him credit for.

Jeff - Is that "new" style a function of the number of different designers on the Fazio staff? It seems to me the sheer number people required by Fazio & Company to create the volume of courses they build each year would generate a tremendous amount of diversity. How much of Tom Fazio actually goes into each course he builds? Is it based on budget or some other factor?

[Matt_Ward]

Have to mention the par-4 16th hole, if memory serves, at Black Diamond Ranch (Lecanto, FL). The dog-leg hole with the quarry below on the left always lurks for the pulled tee shot. Great stuff and a superb challenge to boot.

Too bad the closing hole belongs in the other thread concerning poor holes.

[Andy Doyle]

Andy - The holes are similar, but I like the one at Belfair better because: 1) You can play around the corner if you must (no forced carry) 2) The tee shot is close enough to the green to temp some players who really shouldn't try 3) The green at Belfair has a lot of movement and slope in it and the bunkers are deep and very much something to be avoided.

You're right, I don't think anyone realistically tries to drive #15 at White Columns from the very back tees.  It's very long, plus that row of trees somewhat blocks the angle.  Even from the blue tees you have to get the ball up quickly or play a slight draw.  

The bunker to the right of the green isn't very "shapely," but it's pretty deep as I remember.  I makes you think pretty carefully about the distance of your drive - if you bang one down there far enough, it brings that bunker more into play on your approach.  If you play your drive too short, it brings you more in range of that fairway bunker on the left.  Nice hole - it makes you think and requires two well-executed shots.

I do like the wrap-around fairway on the Belfair hole.

andy

[Jeff_Brauer]

I loved some of his holes at Disney - including a par five with carry bunkers on a sharp dogleg left and a wide green, with the right side partially blind, unless you play your second way left. It may have been 11.

Jeff,

I think you mean the 16th.   It's a really superb par five.

Mike,

Keith is right, its 12. I knew it was that point in the round.  I liked that two of the three fw bunkers were stacked much like those at 10 at Riviera - you can't tell how much if any fw is between them to hit the shot.  And then, the Dell inspired, but only half blind green actually has more strategy than the original short par 3.

[Michael Whitaker]

Andy - The Belfair hole is just begs the big hitter to try and knock it on. There is even a little bit of fairway turf between the bunkers to make it seem more "doable." It makes the "sticks" feel impotent when they choose to play down the fairway... as a result, a LOT of them try and fail, making 5 or worse when playing safe would nearly guarantee a 4. It's a lot of fun to watch groups play through that hole and observe their decision making.

[Adam_Messix]

Best Par 5 -- #18 at Wade Hampton


Best Par 4 -- #2 at Victoria National


Best Par 3 -- #2 at Headwaters

[JMorgan]

Hudson National #10

[Tommy_Naccarato]

That image, with the exception of the pond or lake or whatever you want to call it, crossing in front of the tee, well it looks to be the same hole as Shadow Creek #4 which looks similar to an aerial I saw of a hole @ Wade Hampton. Glad to see Faz has got the memiograph machine working again.

Tommy - What is your point? Are you saying a great hole design that an architect finds works on one course should never be copied on another? That would have prevented a lot of great Northeast courses from being built, wouldn't it?

Michael,
I'm not neccessarily putting any of it down, I'm just making note of how these holes all look and play the same. However, the holes you are comparing them to in the northeast by Seth Raynor and Charles Banks have their own individual character that are characterized where they fit in the round, as well as how they fit into the land. I have yet to see any two alike in any of the ways I've explained. But I'll admit my Raynor vocabulary is VERY small.

The King's are almost exact copies of one another and he can recreate them anywhere, anytime for you for a handsome price. The firm actually tells their clients this. You want Shadow Creek, they'll giv eyou Shadow Creek. It is my opinion those type of Fazio holes are about as interesting as a white-bread, American (processed) cheese sandwich. (dry)

But I'll give you this, that John's Island looks like its a pretty swell course. I don't know much about it, but from the looks, I'll say that Vic Nat and John's Island are the cream of the crop that I would very much look forward to looking at someday. (If the opportunity should ever arise)

[rjsimper]

I liked the 16th at Old North State, particularly the green setting, but I am a sucker for par 4s to peninsula greens, a la 17 at Congressional Blue.

[Tom_Doak]

James:  Which hole was the 10th at Hudson National?  I can't remember the routing well enough.  I thought there were a couple of holes there for his "best holes" list and a couple for his "worst holes" list -- the very long par-3 over wetlands (#8?) being firmly in the latter category.

[JMorgan]

James:  Which hole was the 10th at Hudson National?  I can't remember the routing well enough.  I thought there were a couple of holes there for his "best holes" list and a couple for his "worst holes" list -- the very long par-3 over wetlands (#8?) being firmly in the latter category.

Tom,

#10 is almost a double dogleg -- dog left, then the green shifts right -- short par 4 that plays toward the Hudson, plus it has a fabulous view down the river to boot.  I agree with you about #8.  It seems not to have been thought out well, nor does it live up to its potential given what is there to work with.  Hudson No. 15, too, breaks the Fazio mold a bit, has interesting angles and introduces more strategy, less framing.

[SPDB]

Agree about the Par 3s at Hudson Nat'l. I think they were looking for yardage on a tight site and dumping into the par 3s made the most sense - as a group (excepting 16), they are very weak, but very long.

James Morgan - I agree about 15, I thought it was a great transition hole on a pretty extreme elevation change. It sort of reminds me of how Flynn makes his transitions and how well he does it.

[Jeff Taylor]

Anybody up for Caves Valley #10. This whole was featured in a USGA magazine and I was able to par it in the Md State Mid-Am. Uphill par 4 over 400 yards. Creek on left that runs up and around the right sde of the split level green. Some fun it was.
And speaking of Forest Creek #4:
http://i.pbase.com/u45/jstaylor/large/39801021.PICT0038.jpg
And some others:
http://i.pbase.com/u45/jstaylor/large/39801062.PICT0039.jpg
http://k41.pbase.com/u45/jstaylor/large/39801086.PICT0040.jpg

Interesting how the flashed up bunkers are invsible from behind the green.


OK folks, any ideas on how to insert images?

[david h. carroll]

Jeff--I don't think that's #10 at Caves you are describing....10 is a short downhill par 4 that tightens up around 280 from the tee

[Jeff Taylor]

I am an idoit. It is #9.
Any help on posting images?
Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

I did like the 9th at Caves Valley, probably the best hole there.

There were some others that weren't so good, but I know the bulldozers have been back since I saw the course.

[PCCraig]

I second the 12th at Forest Creek (North)...the best hole at the complex!

[Greg Tallman]

Tom Doak - What was it specifically that you did not like about Pine Barren's 15th? Agreed #4 is an excellent hole but just curious as to your thoughts on 15.

Only Fazio offering in my neck of the woods is Querencia which I do not believe would have any nominees for this thread.

Overall would probably have to agree with WWPB #4... liked some of Emerald Dunes (been too long to recall hole numbers) and the par 3 (12th I believe) at Black Diamond.

[Doug Ralston]

#18, the reachable par-5 at Belterra is nice.

http://www.golfkentuckylinks.com/Pages/Photo%20Pages/Belterra%20photo.html

Here is a link with pix from GKL. Not great, but you should see their screen saver [GKl's].

Doug

[Matt_Cohn]

Those two holes from White Columns and Belfair look exactly like the par-4 10th at the Lakes Course at Primm Valley near Las Vegas. It's almost exactly the same as the one at Belfair, 347 but drivable directly over the lake. There's just a few more bunkers short right.

[Greg Tallman]

BV - Perhaps I was mistaken but I thought I saw Doak with a non-detailed critique of PB #15. If not my apologies to Tom.

Having played Pine Barrens many times I did feel an advantage on the higher/left fairway more often than not when reaching the green or getting very close was not an option. It has been quite some time since last there but my memory of the hole is rather vivid and I often took it up the left side as at least my perception was that of a better angle and not necessarily because it was a tremendously safer/easier tee shot.  

At least we all agree on #4... made everything from 3 to 8 there before. Misssing right off the tee was not exactly fun.

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