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Mike_Cirba

This topic is probably a bit premature, as the outing at Lederach isn't for a few weeks yet, but I thought it might be timely anyway, given some of the recent discussions here.

A frequent topic here concerns whether seriously undulating and/or sloped greens still have a place in golf today, or whether 1) New courses have to keep any internal slope at some miminal angle to accommodate modern green speeds and more importantly, 2) Classic courses often need to have their most severe contours reduced and neutered to remain playable or to facilitate multiple hole locations with modern green speeds.

For those of you attending I'll be curious to hear your thoughts afterwards.   Lederach has some of the most severely undulating greens I've seen this side of The Old Course and yet at least when I played, they remain very playable simply because the speeds are kept reasonable and consistent with the design.

Isn't this simply part of what we should mean when we use the term "maintenance meld"?    Why isn't this simple solution employed more often?  Have we all become hostage to the "Mine is bigger" Stimp-meter mentality?   Is there anything as problematic to good and interesting design than this fast-greens mindset, which seems to have become at least as harmful as the "7000+ yard, Championship Course " mentality which became pervasive during the Trent Jones era?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 10:07:09 PM by Mike Cirba »

Bill_McBride

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Mike, what is the desired and maintained stimp at Lederach?

Does the greenkeeping staff double cut and roll before the member-guest?

Mike_Cirba

Mike, what is the desired and maintained stimp at Lederach?

Does the greenkeeping staff double cut and roll before the member-guest?

Bill,

I dunno.   My guess is that the greens were probably stimping about an 8, tops, yet the ball rolled very true and consistently.  

I don't know their maintenance practices and/or goals, but it does seem that common sense prevails.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
That sounds great, and essential if the greens are as OTT as mentioned.  Remind you of Pasatiempo?!  :o

My reference to the double cut and roll syndrome is the way that many clubs deviate from every day practice when a big event comes along.  Then it's as tough for the members as for the guests!

Mike_Cirba

That sounds great, and essential if the greens are as OTT as mentioned.  Remind you of Pasatiempo?!  :o


Bill,

Generally, the greens are not as sloped as the ones at Pasatiempo, but have considerably more internal contour.  Think holes like #2, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18 at TOC for something comparable in swales, valleys, humps, and bumps.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Given that Lederach is a public course and the internal contours are what they are, I think whatever the stimp is now is fine. I played there last Friday and the greens were just right. I can't imagine them any faster.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
If half a dozen of Lederach's greens can be compared to TOC's works of art, I would love to be there with the group.  It sounds great.  However, will be in Portland enjoying cooler weather than here at home on the Gulf Coast.  ;D

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bill and Steve,

I agree that the greens can be compared to TOC.  As I walked up to the 1st green, I blinked my eyes and shouted to Kelly as he was walking up behind me: 'How many dead elephants do you have in this green?'

I think this summed up my round with Kelly and his family.  I was trying all sorts of silly shots.  Not all of them coming off but with the different contours in and around the greens I could not resist.

Even when some of them didn't come off I would ask Kel if I could try the shot again...I think our playing partners thought I was nuts putting from 20 yards off the green, aiming 10 yards left of the flag to try to bring it down to low flag areas.

One of the discussions I had with Kel on the day was green speeds.  I thought that the speeds were just a little too slow to use the slopes from the sides to bring a ball down to a low spot (we played on Sunday after you Steve).  I think they should be stimping just a little faster to be able to use the contours a little more the way Kel has designed them.

The big thing to look at when you guys are playing the course on the 21st this month is not just the green contours but the surrounds.  Kel has designed superb areas around the greens that look and play very much like TOC.  I used my putter nearly everytime off the green in these areas.

By the way no one has found the Road Hole green yet...

Brian
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 02:32:17 AM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mike_Cirba

bumping for those attending tomorrow...

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Tuesday night storm dumped some heavy rain in the area. It may rain tonight. The greens could be a little soft.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'd agree that Lederach's greens are amongst the boldest and most interesting I've played. Fortunately, the speed is not too over the top--just right in my book. I'm looking forward to a better look at them
Friday.


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