[Matt_Cohn]

This should be fun.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Gentlemen...Start your Keyboards!!!

JWK

[Mike_Cirba]

The 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, 9th, and a few other holes at Ridge at Back Brook, where a drive challenging any hazard is rewarded with an oblique angle, a forced carry, or a combination thereof.

Conversely, playing away from trouble on the drive leaves a relatively open approach.   It's the home of anti-strategy, IMHO.  

The 18th hole at Emerald Dunes is another classic.  

[Joel_Stewart]

Most of the holes at The Preserve in Carmel, Ca.   He was brought in late after the owner died and clashed with Sandy Tatum on just about everything.   The bottom line is the course was trying to be a minimilistic course and Fazio still bulldozed the fairways to be super smooth yet has the rough edge lines.  The bunkers are a mish-mash of Fazio bunkers and rough edge.   Its a mess.

[CHrisB]

Most of the holes at The Preserve in Carmel, Ca.   He was brought in late after the owner died and clashed with Sandy Tatum on just about everything.   The bottom line is the course was trying to be a minimilistic course and Fazio still bulldozed the fairways to be super smooth yet has the rough edge lines.  The bunkers are a mish-mash of Fazio bunkers and rough edge.   Its a mess.

Joel,
Does most of your dislike of The Preserve have to do with aesthetics, or the holes themselves? I really liked The Preserve when I played a tournament there a few years back--there were some holes (like #9) that were a little awkward, and some (like #15) that were really hard, but I thought some of the holes (#4, #6, #8, #11, #14, #17, #18) were really good, and of course the routing (which wasn't his) and the property itself are outstanding.

[CHrisB]

#18 Flint Hills National (!)
#4 Caves Valley

Hmmm....

You know, my biggest beef with Fazio is that it is often very hard for me to remember a lot of the holes on his courses, and especially the sequence of the holes.

The downside of framing, I guess...takes away from the "flow" of the course.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

The 17th at Shadow Creek.

This isn't a golf hole, and I don't think it was ever intended to be.

Simply ridiculous.

[A.G._Crockett]

#18 Flint Hills National (!)
#4 Caves Valley

Hmmm....

You know, my biggest beef with Fazio is that it is often very hard for me to remember a lot of the holes on his courses, and especially the sequence of the holes.

The downside of framing, I guess...takes away from the "flow" of the course.

I've played 10 or so Fazio courses and can't remember a single bad hole.  Or a great one.

This is exactly the issue that has been discussed here so many times.  The holes stir no passion either way, good or bad.  Only when you finish a round and realize how little you can remember do you realize that something is wrong.

What I remember is generally the conditions and the clubhouse at a Fazio course.  The holes themselves don't strike me as good or bad, which, in a way, makes them very, very bad.

[Glenn Spencer]

I know that I have played a great deal of them, but just as AG was saying, I can't remember most of them. Is there a site with a list, I haven't been able to find one? Berkeley Hall is a good example, I can't remember much from there, no problem with Ocean Course recall though.

[Jim_Coleman]

   The 2nd at Galloway.  There's no green there, just a few bumps.  It's not an example of a green within a green; it's a green without a green.
    And talk about bad routing  --  for a course allegedly designed for walking!

[Tom_Doak]

Half the comments above are off-topic.  If you can't find a hole to pick on, don't.  And I respectfully disagree with Tommy about the 17th at Shadow Creek ... it's the only "island" par-3 I've seen since the 17th at TPC/Sawgrass which made me think at all.

Personally, I don't think Tom Fazio builds many bad holes at all; he'd rather be safe than sorry.  When I've seen a hole that I thought was a bit questionable, my sense was that he [or some associate of his] was trying to break out of his shell and do something a bit more daring, but that their heart wasn't really in it.

The best example I can think of right now is the short par-4 15th at his Treetops course in northern Michigan, which I think most people nominate as the signature hole.  The tee shot is down a valley and then the hole turns right and plays downhill to a fallaway green in three parts ... with about two feet of fall between each tier.  I putted around on it for a while and if the green is fast at all it seemed almost impossible to keep a shot on the middle tier until you are coming back uphill at it.

[John Kirk]

Once again, my memory is limited on the three Fazio courses I've played.  In general, I did not like the collection of short par 4s at The Quarry.  I felt there was a "lack of definition".  I did not feel the golf hole gave me clues about how far I could hit the tee shot, nor where the correct side of the green was.

I'll nominate the 4th hole at The Quarry, which was about 380 yards, dogleg left.  I just couldn't tell how much club was needed off the tee.  After one of our playing partners duck hooked a driver that barely trickled into the left fairway bunker, driver seemed a fairly safe choice.  I then pushed a drive a little right which I thought looked OK, but was in fact 30 yards through the fairway.  If you were going to hit it far enough to carry the fairway bunker, you had to come pretty close to actually carrying it.

Once I pitched back to the fairway, I couldn't tell where the low side of the green was, which may be considered good architecture in terms of deception.  The greens there are so dang fast it was hard to discern the high and low spots from the fairway.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
I'll stick by my contention that the 17th at Shadow Creek was built specifically for Weddings, Funerals and Bar Mitzvahs. It's nothing but an ohhhhs and ahhhhs hole, and I'm sure this is exactly what Steve Wynn wanted. Elevated tee to a flat & featureless green with fauna that makes you think a lion, tiger, panther, jaguar or liger is going pop out of and hopefully eat you alive.

We also can't foget to mention the most lovely of waterscape features that makes so much noise--the same type of noise you bag on poor Ted Robinson for in the CGTGC. (and rightfully so)

The only thing missing is a custom-built Bose sound system projecting the soundtrack music to Bali Hai.

You'll notice I've only posted one hole from the various Fazio courses I've played, only one and if you go to the Best Fazio thread, I've listed several, and I mean several including many holes form Shadow Creek. I'm not being partial--I'm just listing what I think is his worst hole. I'm not bagging on him, I'm just listing what I think is what is wrong with the hole.

Hopefully I'll never have to live to see in my lifetime, you designing a hole just like it. I would rather spend a eternity in Hell playing the 8th at Sebonack then spend doing the same at the 17th at Shadow Creek.

I know, my hubris is insane idiotorcracy......I am a lunatic.

[Joel_Stewart]

The 16th hole is my least favorite hole at Shadow Creek.  It was basically built to go uphill to set up the tee shot for #17.  Its nothing but a mish mash of containment mounding and swails.

[Voytek Wilczak]

I would rather spend a eternity in Hell playing the 8th at Sebonack then spend doing the same at the 17th at Shadow Creek.

Can someone post a pic of the 17th at Shadow Creek?

Cuz the statement above is a strong statement.

[John_Cullum]

Hole 6 at World Woods Rolling Oaks is a really weak sister on an otherwise great golf course. Its only 340 or so from the back tee, its a little uphill and has a big oak tree just short and left of the green. None of it really works. The thing I don't understand is that there is plenty of room between 5 green and 7 tee and lots of room to the left of the hole. I think a better hole could have been built on that spot, and it just sticks in my mind as the one bad hole on the course (well, I don't really like 18, but it has some merit.)

[Peter_Collins]

Totally agree on No. 18 at Flint Hills.  It's truly an awful golf hole. The good news is sooner or later the big tree guarding the approach from the left side of the fairway will eventually die and it will just be a mundane par 5 rather than a really bad one.

I would also nominate Pinehurst No. 8, the whole course.  Completely out of place and contrived.

[Matt_Cohn]

17 at Shadow Creek

[Jordan Wall]

17 at Shadow Creek

But he incorporated that hole so it would look awesome, and blend in with the environment!!
 

[Jerry Kluger]

It's the "ping" sound the metal rocks make that is unique.

[John Kirk]

Jerry that's funny.

A rather lukewarm response for the oft maligned Mr. Fazio.  Perhaps what Tom D. says is true, that he creates safe designs which are rarely terrible.  It may also indicate the overall lack of experience GolfClubAtlas.com members have with Mr. Fazio's work.  I certainly have little to offer here.

[Mike_Cirba]

Of course Tom is correct here.

Tom Fazio builds more "5" and "6" Doak rating courses than virtually anyone.

The problem is that he can and has done "7" and "8" courses and there should be more of these based on the land he's gotten.

Can anyone cite a "9" or "10" in his portfolio?    

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

How many Fazio's are in Digest's top 25...How many Golfweek guys would play Shadow Creek if it wasn't free...You must agree that there are 25 nines in this country..

[Scott_Burroughs]

Can anyone cite a "9" or "10" in his portfolio?    

I believe Shadow Creek got a '9' in The Confidential Guide.

[Mike_Cirba]

Can anyone cite a "9" or "10" in his portfolio?    

I believe Shadow Creek got a '9' in The Confidential Guide.

Scott,

I almost said "except Shadow Creek" for two reasons;

1) I knew Doak rated it a 9
2) To avoid the inevitable ensuing reiterative argument here about whether it is or not.

For those who have played there, is Victoria National a 9?  Wade Hampton?  Trump National?

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