News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Architect on Dozer; Good or Not?
« on: July 15, 2006, 09:21:46 AM »
From Ran's review;
Quote
11th hole, 165 yards; Nobody knows just how good - or how hard - Ballyneal will become. Take the 11th hole for instance which plays from dune top to dune top. As the course matures, and as Green Keeper Dave Hensley works his magic, golfers will come to fear the front hole locations at the 11th as anything just short will likely roll twenty or thirty yards down the hill. Indeed, the golfer will hope a slightly mishit tee ball ends up in the front bunker. Fortunately though the putting surface is large, giving the golfer plenty of opportunity to show the front bank respect by hitting well onto the green and getting down in two putts from fifty feet. This hole highlights that the principal challenge of the course is indeed the short grass. It also highlights the fact that sometimes the golfer will be surprised as to exactly where his ball ends up!  



This is my favorite one shotter (so far) at Ballyneal. The exposed dune tops make judging natures influences multi-faceted.

Without divulging any of her secrets, I was humored to findout that the greens actual construction was something of a quandry, for team Renaissance.

 So, the archie hopped up on the dozer and finished her off, hizself.

P.s. In order to invite Tom into the thread, I'd sure love to hear the story about how this all came about. And while you're at it, could you confirm that the location of the 16th green, changed three times in one day.

Ain't USGA spec greens grand?





"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Architect on Dozer; Good or Not?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2006, 10:09:58 AM »
Adam:

I rarely get on a dozer anymore, because there are always guys on-site who are faster and better at it than me.  But there are times when I am struggling to get my ideas across, or when I just haven't worked out exactly what I want to do yet, and if there is a machine idle, I'll get on for a couple of hours and try to sort it out by pushing the dirt around myself.

The eleventh was just one of those greens.  The original green site was much more of a bowl, from the center of the green over to the right; there was a substantial ridge on the left side that blocked your view out and would make recovery shots from the left of the green impossible.  [That grass hump just behind the flag shows the height of the ridge that ran along the left side ... once you make a cut you have to grass it in, and the boys were all worried that if they made the big cut it wouldn't "tie in" well.]

I wanted that ridge knocked down, but none of the guys shaping really grasped to what degree I wanted it out of there, so eventually I just blitzed it myself.  That gave us a lot of dirt to play with ... some of it went down into the approach, but the rest held up the green on the left half of the bowl, which I hadn't really envisioned when I started in on it.  The green also wound up working from left to right, where the prevailing wind pushes it naturally.

Jim Urbina had walked the site with me several times before construction and he was shocked how different that hole turned out when he came back.

As to 16, we played around with the position of the green a little bit as we started to build it ... thirty feet further back?, a little more to the right? ... but it really didn't change very much as far as I can remember.  The fifth and the eighteenth greens were really the only ones that I decided to move between the start of construction and when we actually got around to building them.  [NOTE:  we didn't actually do any construction on them in their original locations, we just changed our minds about what to do after looking at them for a few more months.]

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect on Dozer; Good or Not?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2006, 12:14:42 PM »
Tom interesting comments about how the hole came about.  I sure hope you keep getting on the dozer on occasion.  It probably adds to the quality of the course, truly makes it a Doak course and adds to the quality of the discussion here.
One advantage naturally is you can then end up with your vision in place.  Another advantage is that you can change almost anything before planting.
At Wildhorse, Proctor and Axland built a par 3, looked at it, didn't quite like it, and decided to promptly rebuild the entire green complex.
One of the advantages in modern day course building that Old Tom didn't have at his disposal.  Too bad some don't use it to better advantage.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Architect on Dozer; Good or Not?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 12:29:25 PM »
Lynn:  I wish I had time to get on the dozer more often, but if I did so too much, I'd miss out on the great stuff that all my associates contribute when I'm not bothering them.  I suspect that I had to get on that hole at Ballyneal because I was speaking up too much and not giving them a chance to come to the right conclusion themselves.

But, I still love to shape every once in a while.  It is an entirely different process to design when you are shaping the green yourself.  If I knew exactly what I wanted, then I'd just describe it to someone else and let them build it, but sometimes you've just got to get your hands in the dough.  And it is nearly always the case that somewhere over the 2-3 hours it takes to rough in a green, the half-finished product starts to remind me of some hole I wasn't thinking of when I started, and the design morphs into a different and more interesting direction.

There are probably one or two greens on every course where we start over, or at least make a major change after the first try at building the green.  Some plan-based designers try to paint that as wasteful, but when you are renting dozers by the month, my sitting on it for three extra hours does not cost a significant percentage of the construction bill.  In fact, I was reading through Thomas' book the other day and he wrote the best possible defense of (paraphrasing here, my memory is getting bad) "the man who can create as he works, molding the land to his vision," as being even more efficient than plasticine models or detailed plans.

The trick is, you just have to be sure that your first attempt doesn't tear up some piece that you will later wish you had left alone.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect on Dozer; Good or Not?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 04:57:17 PM »
I'm guessing not all architects can work a dozer, correct?

one would hope they could...course I guess I am old school and think that all bosses should be able to do the work that their staff has to do..which certainly isn't the case where I am
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect on Dozer; Good or Not?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2006, 07:47:48 PM »
Running a dozer is a great asset for golf architecture, unless you are Nicklaus, Palmer, or other architects that do a larger amount of work in a year.  Take someone like Rod Whitman and you will find that the project will turn out just fine with him on the seat of a dozer.  Put Nicklaus on the seat of a Dozer and my guess is that it would be good for a photo-Op, but that is about all.  

Also, different sites have different dozers.  Controls can be different and their can be a short (perhaps long) learning curve to operate a piece of equipment.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Architect on Dozer; Good or Not?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2006, 08:11:05 PM »
Ron:  I have never seen Nicklaus pose with a bulldozer, and I doubt we ever will.  :)  He's selling his knowledge of golf, not his shaping ability.

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect on Dozer; Good or Not?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2006, 09:10:02 PM »
Tom - I guess I need to use smilies.
The great thing about you and Jack is that you surround yourself with great people.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect on Dozer; Good or Not?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2006, 10:55:06 AM »
Tom, Thanks very much for the stories and reasoning.

The transitions from 4 green to 5 tee & 5 green to 6 tee, are some of the most unique and enjoyable aspects of the routing.

Being given the freedom to make these types of changes, has to be one of the architects greatest feelings. Is it?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back