[Robert Thompson]

Robert:  That last bit was rather vague for me ... must be why you are wearing sunglasses.  What is a successful design?  I don't mean that facetiously, either.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that what I might feel is a successful design and what an owner or architect might feel is a successful design are different things. We might have very differing opinions and still forcefully support our disparate views.

As for the ASGCA being a professional development organization, I mean largely they just get together once a year and play nice golf courses. They also would appear to offer some sort of standard for the business of architecture. They might consider that professional development, but I'd consider it a holiday or at the very most, a networking event.

Frankly I can see why someone like Ian, who is building his reputation might join, but I don't see how it would make sense for you, Tom. Unless you're success now makes you part of the establishment you've bucked against....

[Tom_Doak]

Robert:  I'm a child of the sixties and seventies, Watergate, etc.  I can't see myself becoming an Establishment guy.  But, it is funny to think about some of the clubs we consult for while considering my "rebellious" image.  At Yeamans Hall one night I sat next to Gen. Westmoreland and his wife for dinner!

[paul cowley]

Robert....loose the shades man.

[T_MacWood]

Ian
This an excellent question. I'm certain The Confidential Guide did step on toes and hurt feelings, but I also think it excellerated the progress of contemporary golf design. T Doak opened eyes to good, bad, thoughtful and thoughless architecture, and who knew, with another critical Doak publication hanging over all golf architects....no one was anxious to be in The Confindential Guide volume 2, 3, 4 or 5.

Another consequence of crticism is the effect it has on the critic especially if he is an architect - the 'put your money where your mouth is' factor. If you are going to criticize another architect you'd better have put a great deal of thought into it and have every expectation that your work is going to attract similar focus and criticism. It elevates everyones game...at least that's been my observtion.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't believe Doak was an architect when he first wrote the Confidential Guide...I think it was first given out Dec 1988..

[T_MacWood]

You are right he wasn't a practicing architect when he wrote the first version and passed it out, he was only an architect in training.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think the intent of the ASGCA code of conduct was to avoid critiquing other architects negatively as part of your own sales process, just to keep it civil.  If they felt the need to do that in 1946, then things might have been even more cutthroat back then than now!

The problem lies in the fact that something I say or write right now critiquing another here could be used at some point in the very distant future.  As you know, indictments are always front page news, but when the prosecutor admits he wrongly charged someone, that little tidbit shows up on page 21, but the innocent man is only remembered for the indictment.

There are other good reasons to limit critiques of others, including the golden rule, the fact that you can't learn while talking, and few criticisms do or can consider the many factors that go into a design decision. I think some of you overvalue the the learning that comes from critique.  Specifically, how does a one paragraph Doak review (often based on a one hour cart ride) ending in giving my course a "4" (or whatever) help me improve as an architect? All I really knew was that some aspiring golf architect thought my courses weren't as good as Sand Hills, and frankly, I already knew that before ever setting foot on SH, and figured that if I wanted to build better courses, I needed to get better sites!

I have recieved and given some critiques from/to other gca's in private for very specific matters, and always after an honest question has been asked.  These have helped me, while for other gcas, maybe mine not so much, I don't know.    A few have made me question long held assumptions, which is good.  

Generally, I learn more from seeing work of other gca's than I would hearing them talk negatively.  So, as far as me learning anything, their time is better spent doing good work than critiquing the work of others.  And that works out better for them, too!

[T_MacWood]

Jeff
Have you ever publicly criticized another architect?

Has your work been openly critiqued by another golf architect?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Closest I've come is in writings here.......

I expect a lightning strike, or call from the ASGCA ethics committee. I hope Ian is now in charge of that one!

[Tom_Doak]

John / Tom:  Your timing is just slightly off.  I started writing the book in 1986 after I'd quit working for the Dyes and had some time on my hands.  But, I gave it to the first forty recipients in 1988 after finishing High Pointe which wasn't yet open.  High Pointe is profiled in the first edition.

Jeff:  I have walked 95% of the courses I've reviewed, only taking a cart when the management insisted I do so or when there wasn't much daylight left.

[Kevin Pallier]

Should Architects Criticize other Architects?

No....but should architects be able to criticise other architects work ? Yes.

Critisizing the person is one thing which IMO is clearly wrong. I have no issue with the critique of works though...so long as it is qualified and put into perspective.

Golf course architecture I would suggest is just like any other profession and one's work shouldn't be beyond reproach. I work in Finance and have found constructive criticism to be helpful to one's career so long as it is balanced. If it is done respectfully and carefully then I can see no reason why one cannot critique anothers work ?

[paul cowley]

Ok guys, that just about does it....although I have always enjoyed TomD's writings and to a lesser extent Jeffs [pow... take that Jeff]...I'm tired of sitting back.

Jeff....although I have yet to play any of your courses, I am sure there is something about part of them that I would not like, so take this as an advance critisism about something you have done... once I get around to discovering it...[Forrest and Ian, get nervous cause I'll be coming at you too....especially you Richardson, I've got Las Palomas square in my cross hairs].

Now Doak...I've got to admit I've probably seen most of your work in doctors offices or on cocktail tables but I did get to Oregon ...so tell me, how did you miss the chance to break up those two par fives on the ocean?....god man, just up the coast Williams and Clark gave you a great idea if you only studied your history....you could of created a faux stockade [like the one their expedition wintered in after reaching the coast ], to help transition while creating interest beyond just another ho hum look up and down the coast....it was right in front of you... how could you have missed it?
Open your eyes next time.....oh, BTW, when you where working at Sebonac, did you happen to notice a rather large faux structure on the neighbors property?.....see its not just me!

Well, enough said...case closed.
But all you out there [ and you know who you are], you just might want to start listening out for my written footsteps because I am not holding back anymore.

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:  Did you mean Lewis and Clark?  Or was Williams some Southern guy on the expedition who gets better billing in history classes south of Virginia?  

But keep letting loose, it'll be good for you.  How's the routing coming in Mexico?  I'll be down there in the fall if you want a second opinion.

[paul cowley]

Tom....OK, so I meant Lewis and William Clark [please quit the mean spirited critisms or you'll never get in the conclave]...I mean just one little mistake and you are all over me....

Mexico is going great, we should start pushing up cacti in Aug.
Please do stop by....we will be setting up our own 30 acre turf farm and will most likely be using sea isle supreme paspalum tee to green...I know you would enjoy the site [and the vacant one next door].

[Ryan Farrow]

Jeff if I remember correctly you served as the president of the ASGCA. In that time did you ever think about or propose some sort of way to get architects together and openly critique each others work? Since GCA.com is the only place you are openly criticized how do you know for sure that you will not befit from open critiques with your peers?


On a side note I read two of your articles in the Golf Course News magazines we have at work and they kind of put me to sleep. I’m glad your writing on here is a lot more informal and a real joy to read.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

Yes, I know you walked most, but recall (I don't sleep with CG under my pillow like some here!) that you mentioned cart rides in a few reviews.  The main point is there anything in those reviews concrete enough to assist a gca in becoming better? I would have to reread them, and there probably is, but real understanding would take a longer critique, IMHO, whereas as a guide to players, its fine.

Paul,

I will tell my courses to look out for a wide eyed crazy guy in a kilt to show up soon......

BTW, I wonder if its appropos for an architects son to offer up a critique? Andrew missed the cut by one at the Junior Footjoy in Greensboro, and shall we say, didn't give rave reviews to the course on our drive down to Pinehurst!  In cases like that, I have to sort through the thought process.  For example, he didn't like the "big honkin swale" in the middle of the green, or your numerous false fronts.  I guess I will have to steer him away from some of my own designs or he won't like those either!

Ryan,

I never endorsed an inhouse bash of the members, but I did institute (with others) small "breakout sessions" at our annual meetings where we would discuss very specific topics like "what are your basic green slopes in cupping areas" and got to hear from others what they do, but not what they would have done had they had the chance to design TPC 17 as an island green.....They were very popular and edumacational among the members.

Ouch on the column remark! I have made a few stabs at humor in those columns, which is usually edited out (although I did sneak my "Dat Effen, Golf Course Architect" column in on them.  I guess the style has to be a bit different when you are a ...harumph.....professional columnist.....They ask for a mix of practical topics (tee size was last month) and design ideas and theory, since their audience is mostly superintendents, etc.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

I think there is a lot in The Confidential Guide to assist a golf course architect in becoming better [the same would be true of Darwin's British Golf Courses].  But, certainly not in every review.  If I even tried to do that I would come across as much more of a know-it-all than I do now, if that's possible.

I just wanted to counter the possibly misleading suggestion that I buzzed around most of those courses in a golf cart.  I did so at Colbert Hills a couple of years ago, but it was 38 degrees and windy and I only had an hour to see it before visiting with a class at K State.  For what it's worth, it seemed to me that you built many of the features there over the top of the ground instead of sitting on it -- I didn't figure out where all the dirt had come from.  It looked completely impossible in the conditions I saw it, but most courses would have that morning.

[paul cowley]

Jeff....you might try to explain to Andrew that when most people are confronted with a 'classic', they might not understand the 'all' of it the first time... and frustration is a response shared by many players, even the greatest of them...and then you could follow up with the story of the great Bobby Jones walking off TOC.

Or you could say "don't worry buddy, you'll get em next time" and follow with a hug or high five ....and tell him that the dude that put that honker swale in that green meant nothing personal and is going to fill the sucker in so no one else gets trapped.

I'm glad your son is part of the game.

[Forrest Richardson]

Yes, I think so Ian.

The problem with Brad's post is that he uses the term "veteran" as if it meant something in terms of the ASGCA. There are loads of older and established members who will nicely critique courses. Most refrain from doing so in any mean spirited method. On the other hand, there are younger, less established members who are ready with an opinion.

I think the "code of conduct" is one that involves ethics and plain old professional common sense. To my knowledge Tom D. does not lack, nor avoid, the ASGCA's Code of Conduct. It is mostly about being honest, representing your work accurately, and not conducting business in any manner which would be seen as unprofessional.

As for young Ryan's comment...It sounds like the ASGCA wants to block out all of the negatives and just pat each other on the back and tell their members they are doing a great job...they have 300+ business associates also telling them what a wonderful job they have done...If open criticism was encouraged would we have seen better golf courses built in the last 20 or so years?[/i]

Gosh. Everyone loves a pat on the back, but that is hardly what I rememnber from any of our meetings. We share stories. We see some courses together (this is always a treat, because you see a place like Oakmont, as an example, with other people who do what you do...it is really neat to see a course through the eyes of another architect, to hear what they like or dislike, what they find interesting.) We learn a few things we did not know beforehand. And, we celebrate the passion for designing golf courses — and the game.

And Ryan, besides commenting on something you know absolutely nothing about, you are propogating bad facts to boot — ASGCA's current membership is about 170...not 300+.

[Ryan Farrow]

Forrest, I am sorry for the bit of misinformation posted and you are correct that I do not know much about what goes on with the ASGCA.

I just can't get this idea out of my head that many golf course architects have a mentality of “if it ain't broke don't fix it”. After seeing the same architects seemingly reproduce the same type of courses with the same mistakes its makes me wonder if they really think they are in fact, right. Is the ASGCA afraid to offend a fellow member even if it could help them in future projects?

[Forrest Richardson]

And, Ryan, are you also under the impression that from 1911 to 1939 there were no mistakes made in all of golf architecture?

Certainly you must be reading the accounts of what has endured as the "best" and clearly you have no idea the errors, awful mistakes or abortions created during this commonly known "Golden Age".

Contrary to popular belief, golf architecture has had its awful bits throughout history...including The Old Course, where not all that was done was done apparently right.

[TEPaul]

" Re:Should Architects Criticize other Architects?"

I can't imagine why not.

It seems to me the only people who are remotely concerned about architects criticizing other architects, are architects themselves.  

I hear architects being critical of other architects all the time----so if they are going to say those things to me I see no real reason why they shouldn't just say those things publicly.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Right on, Tom. An architect started this thread!  

[Donnie Beck]

If Architects are anything like Superintendents there are far more bad ones out there than good ones. Unfortunately our association is more interested in promoting professionalism than growing good grass. If the ASGCA is anything like the GCSAA then it is a pretty useless organization. Over the years I have learned far more from my peers than I could ever learn from our overpriced conventions.

[Forrest Richardson]

No offense, but you cannot compare an association of 175 professionals to one of 20,000. At least not with true results.

A professional organization of golf course architects is only useless to those who (a) do not wish to get anything out of it, and (b) those who sit back and don't contribute to its success. You will find these people in all walks of life, and in all sorts of organizations.

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