[Jordan Wall]

#5 and #16 at BD

After reading many comments on these holes, this is what I have come up with.

These two holes should be all world.  Yet each hole presents something that prevents it from being put into that 'world class' standing.  On #5, the area in the left portion of the fairway is too small to persuade most golfers to give it a go.  On #16, driving to the top portion of the fairway does not provide as good an angle as it probably should.

Given the extraordinary sites of these two holes (I dont need to be there to know cliffside and oceanside in Oregon is awesome) why are they not world class?
Why is the area of the left portion of #5 fairway so small?
Why wasnt #16 made so a good tee shot to the top level provides the ideal angle of attack?
And, why doesnt Bandon do some small renovations to change this, if indeed renovations wuld make these holes better?

[Dan Herrmann]

To me, Bandon Dunes' 16th hole is its weakest.  To me, the upper fairway doesn't give a great angle, and the lower fairway quickly turns to a scub-type surface on top of a cliff.  

Granted, I've played it only three times, but it's the one hole at the resort that I just don't like.  Nothing else comes close.

Maybe it's because I like 15 with its gaping bunker so much, that 16 seems like a letdown.  I also look forward to 17 tee, where the golfer says goodbye to the ocean.

[Tim Bert]

While I agree that the left part of the fairway on #5 leaves a little to be desired, I really like the hole and I have no problem with it exactly as it plays.  It is one of those holes I described on another thread.  Hard as hell, you resign yourself to bogey or double, and hope for a par.

The approach into the tight neck is frightening and enjoyable.

[peter_p]

Jordan,
   In my playings the left side of #5 is problematic because I can't be sure I can carry the hazard line. If I can carry the ball to that section of fairway I am left with a semi-blind approach and the prevailing wind is not at all helpful at that angle. For many others the first part of the equation is not a problem.
   I don't have much of a problem with #16. Again, with my carry length I can only challenge the left side of the diagonal ridge. Coming in from the right side of the upper fairway is easier than the left side, as you can play around the bunker by the green. If I screw up to the right I do have a blind shot, but I am coming in along the long axis of the green.

[Sean Leary]

16 was changed significantly for the better sice it opened.  The left fairway has been way opened up, where before, drives ran into trouble if hit too far.  I like the bunker that protects the front of that green after a good drive.  It makes the pitch much more difficult.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jordon, I think 4,5 and 14 are all world holes on Bandon Dunes. The risk reward of the left half is super. 16 is a weak weak hole in my opinion and frankly it 17 and 13 are archtectural rookie mistakes screaming to move this course down another 30 spots in the ratings. That along with the countless number of collection areas on sand is just plain silly and more rookie design.I would hire Doak or C&C anytime any place. I cannot think of a reason to hire David Kidd anywhere anytime or anyplace especially the 7th course at St. Andrews. I hope he proves me wrong. It is on the same type of land as Kingsbarns and frankly the first views of the work scared me. And yes South Park does rule. Cartman is a star.

[Sean Leary]

Tiger,

What is the rookie mistake made on 13?  Wasn't that hole the one hole where almost no earth was moved at all except for the tees and green?

[Jordan Wall]

Sean and Tiger,

You two have different opinions about 16, or so it seems.
Here is a question maybe both sides can get at.
Tiger mentioned the rankings, and do you guys think that simply because 16 is on the ocean it actually moves BD up in the rankings?  Do you think most of the public like the hole, though architecturally it is somewhat weak?

[rjsimper]

Sean and Tiger,

You two have different opinions about 16, or so it seems.
Here is a question maybe both sides can get at.
Tiger mentioned the rankings, and do you guys think that simply because 16 is on the ocean it actually moves BD up in the rankings?  Do you think most of the public like the hole, though architecturally it is somewhat weak?

Since when is there a consensus that 16 is architecturally weak?

That is painting with a pretty broad brush.

I think pretty much any hole, regardless of whether it's a good one to begin with or not, is made even more enticing by an oceanfront location.

Does 16 on being on the ocean make BD a higher ranked course?  There are a lot more holes on the ocean than just 16...so no.  If you are asking if Bandon Dunes golf course being on the ocean helps it in the rankings, then absolutely yes it does, just as it helps Pacific Dunes, and just as it helps Pebble Beach.

[Tim Pitner]

Jordan,

Don't believe everything you read, even if written by Ran.

My understanding is that the area left of the mounds on #5 is small because Kidd left the mounds as he found them.  There's no room to extend the fairway left--you'd fall off a cliff.  I've ended up left of the mounds several times (I generally play a draw).

Re: #16, isn't the ideal tee shot one that provides the best angle of attack?  So, you have it backwards.  There are plenty of options off the tee on that hole--driver at the green, driver or 3 wood left, something less even further left.  It's not my favorite hole on the course, but it's very unique and it's a fun hole to play.  The 3/4 pitch shot from a tight lie over the front pot bunker with the Pacific behind you is one tough shot.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sean, the rookie mistake on 13 is having the hole set up as if 17 green is the target for your second and often 3rd shots. This puts the people on 14 tee in the landing zone. Even worse they are blind to the incoming balls. The collection area on the right 3/4 of the way down the hole is hidious and collects 60 to 70% of the shots played on the hole. I do not think 16 being on the ocean has anything to do with the problems or positives. Of course you do have a nice view while you wait to play your tee shot there. There is a great par 3 waiting to be built. Therei s a natural green site about 180 yards off the tee as the base of the dune with the ocean as a right boundary, 30 yards of fairway or barritz green before the gorge as a front boundary and the dune for rear and left boundaries. Its as natural a hole as there is on the course.  No need for traps, plays perfect down wind or into the winter wind. A great hole and this would make 17 easier to fix as well.

[rjsimper]

Tiger -
Regarding the "great par 3 to be built on the site of 16" - did you see my proposed routing in the #16 thread in response to Tom Jefferson?  I'm curious what you think about that - I too think there was a great opportunity for a truly unique green site in the location that I think you are talking about...though I had it laid out as a par 4.

[Lyman Gallup]

Tiger:

I find it surprising that you object to the collection areas on BD but you apparently applaud the collection areas on PD since you would hire Doak and company at any time.  My observation on the collection areas has been quite the opposite--I have found them to be more prevalent and divot infested on PD than BD which makes the collection areas on PD more offensive to me.

[Mike Erdmann]

The problem with the collection areas on Bandon Dunes is that by and large they're built as collection drains, each one with a plastic drainage grate at the bottom.  If you take the time to study the drainage system, it's actually quite jarring how repetitively these collection drains are placed.  On the other hand, the collection areas on Pacific Dunes were mostly naturally found swales and weren't built for the purpose of locating a drain at the bottom.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Ryan, I am sorry I missed that, but I am glad great minds think alike. where would your wee be for a par 4 though? Mike answered the collection area question Lynman. I do not even see signs of drainage on Pacific Dunes. I love the work Tom, Jim  and the team did there. As for Bandon dunes Mike summed it up well and I call that rookie or average work.

[rjsimper]

Tiger-

This was in response to Tom Jefferson, who was responding to me bemoaning the neglect of that potential green site, and he asked, quite reasonably, how that little coastal crevice could have reasonably been used and fit into a workable routing and would it have been a better routing than what Kidd ultimately chose...I would make the site we're talking about into the 12th green.

How about this routing-

12 instead of a par 3 becomes a par 4 of maybe 350 yards, playing along the same line as the current 12th hole, out to the coast, and then playing along the coast to a green tucked behind the crevice that can be either approached directly over the top, or with a running shot around the left edge of it.

13 then becomes a par 3 playing similarly to 15, only with the green somewhere set in the large area between the current 12th green and 13th tee

14 is just the renumbered current 13th hole

15 becomes the renumbered current 14th hole

16 is a par 3 playing from the current 15th tee to the current 16th green location

17 and 18 remain as-is.

What do you think?

(I realize this doesn't address your criticism of 13 or 17, but I'm just trying to solve my problems here )

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I like where you are going with this. 13 to 18 and especially 15 to 18 are really squeezed inl. Look how you wander all over creation on the front nine, as long as we are talking rookie design issues. 17 needs additional fairway to the left of the traps to allow for normal play by 1o plus handicaps in a normal 4 to 6 club summer wind. there is plenty of land there as well. The trap along the cliff edge to catch windblown balls is a weak compensation feature to me.

[Paul Richards]

Out of all 54 holes at Bandon, the only one I perceive to have a 'problem' is #14 on the Trails.  

That green is just WAY too severe for the hole.


It was described best as a "driveable par 4 that is unreachable in two shots".


For the record, I birdied it the last time I played it.


 

[Tim Bert]

I'm surprised that you would spend time re-routing the last third of the course, and leave #18 as is.  I have no particular problem with it, but I've read multiple complaints about it being a bland finishing hole.

Also, #12 might work okay as a par 4, but having played it as is, I don't think I'd change a thing.

[rjsimper]

Certainly, I think most would find places to re-route BD if given the chance.  My suggestion is only a way to make better use of the crevice/green site built into the 16th fairway that is now just postcard fodder...Tom Jefferson is right, though, there would have to be a lot done in order to do so.  It's not an endorsement of 17 or 18, though - I think the current 16 is a better hole than either of those two...

I still loved the course, though.  I'd go back up there in a second.

[Michael Dugger]

I am not in agreement with the majority on this thread regarding the 16th at Bandon Dunes.

I think it is a wonderful hole.

Carrying the grassy knoll is in question into a strong wind, provided you are playing from the proper tees.  Contemplating what to do in this situation is intriguing because of the crevace.  

Without a lot of wind the golfer must determine if they have enough chutzpah in their driver to carry the grassy knoll.  If I have one complaint it is I cannot always figure where the bunkers BEYOND the grassy knoll are located, however this is a minor complaint.  Provided you clear the gunk and strike a bit of luck in missing the bunkers, we are talking about a wedge shot to a big green here fellas.

THIS IS NOT A DIFFICULT HOLE, in my opinion, only when the pin is RIGHT behind the greenside bunker (which is deep and horrible) is it difficult to attack this pin with a SW.

Or a LW, or possibly clever run up shot, for those gifted in this artform.  Even a putter applies.

I say quit yer whinin'  It is probably the scenery distracting you.

Downwind this hole really gets interesting because making a wise choice often results in finding a safe place to attack the green from, ideally with a wedge (again) in your hand.  Cranking one over the grassy knoll (aim a smidge left of the green) is fairly commonplace.  Even I feel comfortable with that and I play to a 15.

If you do not get an unlucky bounce you are inside 100 yards.

WHAT IS SO WRONG WITH THAT?

We are discussing a golf hole offering as much visual splendor to be found in golf AND a different problem to ponder based on the wind.  Furthermore, in still conditions the architecture of the hole ITSELF asks us to consider the location of the flagstick, determine how best to attack it and somehow navigate ourselves to this position in pursuit of a hard par, easy bogey.  

Sounds like a pretty strategic and beautiful golf hole to me!!  It is an exacting hole.  Big deal?

The 16th at BD is possibly the best hole on the property, again, in my opinion.  I'd venture to guess more ohhhhs and ahhhs are had venturing out to that tee box than any on the entire property.

Let's see a show of hands.  

Who stood on top of the bench located near the tee box to get a higher vantage point?

I am serious.

Overall I think PD is a more thrilling and strategic course, but for sheer individual splendor, BD16 rocks my world!!!  

I think it is the coolest place on the whole property.  The green and successive 17th tee sets on the edge of the planet.  Doesn't everyone spend an extra second or two on the 16th green to marvel at the view looking south?  It is breathtaking.

 

As far as BD5.  It's perfect just the way it is.  It is unique.  It is wonderful.  Get off BD5, Jordan!!

[Tom_Doak]

This thread is getting out of hand.  One of the top 50 courses in America, and you guys are going to re-route the back nine and make it better just like that?  Sorry, but I'll put my money on David.

Also, if you had taken time to read the recent book by Steve Goodwin, you might have learned that the routing for the front nine at Bandon Dunes was changed on the fly when Mike bought the additional land for Pacific Dunes ... whereas the routing for the back nine was unchanged from when it was planned for the smaller-sized property.  That's why the front appears to "wander all over the place" compared to the back, David suddenly got a lot more acreage to work with.

Of course, I'm sure Bandon Dunes could have been even better if David had been allowed to use even more of the land to the north, but personally, I'm glad that he wasn't.  

[Paul Richards]

I agree with Tom Doak.  This is one of the really special places in the US, certainly in the top handful of Modern courses, and you guys think it should be re-routed?

Crazy.


It's a spectacular course on a spectacular site.


 

[Lyman Gallup]

Mike E and Tiger:

OK, I'll admit that I've only played BD four times but I haven't noticed any drains in the collection areas on BD or PD.  I'll accept that as an explanation but I'll be sure to be more observant next time I play BD to see if I agree with that reasoning.

[rjsimper]

Come on guys - on one hand, yes, Bandon Dunes is a special place and highly ranked...but that doesn't make it completely immune from criticism or discussion of it's relative merits and shortcomings.

But read carefully in this and the other thread and you'll find that I'm not attacking the course or the routing.  Could it be improved? Perhaps - I don't know, and I'm not qualified to champion anything other than what the architect did nearly as well as others on this site.

My alternate routing was an exercise in A- Fantasy and B- Response to Tom Jefferson in a discussion about the crevice on 16...and for the record I really like the 16th as-is.  It's not a "Hey, Bandon Dunes stinks - lets re-route and make it world class!"

So don't worry about me starting a "re-route Bandon" petition - I just wonder why that coastal crevice wasn't used as an integral part of the golf course, when it's really one of the cooler natural coastal features on the property.


 

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