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Matt_Ward

Bayonne's 8th Hole ... Par-5 Supreme !!!
« on: July 12, 2006, 02:53:33 PM »
Had to mention this hole as a separte item. IMHO, this particular hole will join the ranks of other gem par-5's in the Garden State with the likes of Plainfield's 12th and Pine Valley's 15th.

The 8th is 579 yards in length. The tee shot is played from a tee box set into a man-made hillside. You then must reach a gentle hill-top protected on both sides by fescue grasses. At roughly 330 yards from the tips there is superb bunker that serves as a warning and beacon for the remainder of what you face. There is also an alley-way protrusion just left of the fairway bunker that can serve as a leap-off point for your second shot -- especially for those game on reaching the hole in two big blows.

Generally, the prevailing wind in the summer is a cross wind out of the south / southeast.

Even after you reach the optimum location in the fairway. You then must decide how aggressive to be on your second. The fairway forms a reverse "C" and the salt marsh serves as a daunting foe as it cuts infront of the green which is also protected by several fronting bunkers -- thank heaven they are present because they serve to help the golfer who hits short or else you would plunge into the murky waters that lie in front of them.

Keep in mind that when playing the hole -- the vista of Lower Manhattan is in plain view. Off to the side is the Statue of Liberty and you can take in the active waterfront that makes up Bayonne. Truly an eyeful and a golf sensation of epic proportions.

Matt_Ward

Re:Bayonne's 8th Hole ... Par-5 Supreme !!!
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2006, 06:11:17 PM »
For those wishing to see what the hole looks like -- go to bayonnegolfclub.com and click on the link "photo gallery."

The 8th is featured on the top of the right hand column entitled, "Bayonne Image Gallery."

Matt_Ward

Re:Bayonne's 8th Hole ... Par-5 Supreme !!!
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2006, 06:59:33 PM »
Jin:

Thank you for posting.

When I played the hole yesterday I hit a tee shot from the tips that was just short of the central fairway bunker. I hit full 2-iron from roughly 250 yards and barely got the ball into the front bunkers. The wind was coming slightly in and from the right and unless the shot is really nailed the best friend you can have is the front bunkers.

One other thing -- the lay-up shot for those going that direction is no sure thing. The angle is quite demanding and there is a very good probabilty you can overcook the second shot and bounce through to the other side where the rough awaits -- the layup corridor photo shows that quite well.

Jin, you are also 1000% on target concerning the green. Any shot that goes beyond where the pin is located is in serious trouble. One other thing you didn't mention there is a serious rise that separate the right part from the left part of the putting surface. I am somewhat hesitant to call it a "rib" but it does mandate you land the ball on the proper side.

I know some people may wince when I say the 8th at Bayonne is no less the equal with Plainfield's 12th or PV's 15th but the hole is simpyl stellar stuff. So many numbers are in play and so many options are there for the player to decide upon before pulling the trigger.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Bayonne's 8th Hole ... Par-5 Supreme !!!
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2006, 07:08:51 PM »
Matt:

For the many golfers who can't go for the green in two:  where is the best place to hit the tee shot?  Which side of the fairway is better to place your second shot?

I only had a quick look but could not discern any advantage to playing toward one side or the other.

Matt_Ward

Re:Bayonne's 8th Hole ... Par-5 Supreme !!!
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2006, 08:05:09 PM »
Tom:

I would say the best tee shot for a three-shot play to the hole is to favor the left side -- this would then provide for a wider safe angle to the landing area for the corridor provided by Bergstol from where most third shots would be played.

If you go down the right side the effective safe landing area becomes a bit more problematic because of the lessening angle you encounter. The slightest of pulls can be disasterous from that side.

Jin is quite correct -- the center bunker has been placed there for other reasons but I salute Bergstol because if you try to hit it between the bunker and the fairway which continues on the right side the tee shot has to be hit absolutely flush and straight.

One of the great things about the hole is that the risk encountered is indeed quite strong and the hole doesn't collapse off the big tee shot alone. Even playing the hole in three conventional shots still has to deal with the intensity of the green there.

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne's 8th Hole ... Par-5 Supreme !!!
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2006, 09:07:01 PM »
There's no question the 8th at Bayonne is a heroic and exciting hole, one that many low-handicappers will love. What interests me is how it fits in with the course as a whole. You have two forced carries on the hole no matter how you play it. It's my observation that Bayonne emphasizes the aerial game a bit more than the classic overseas links that it draws comparisons to. (The approaches on numbers 2, 6, 8 and 16--all involve carries over either water or seriously broken ground.) No matter what set of tees you play, you have to hit some real powerful golf shots at Bayonne. It is most definitely "fun and interesting" golf.

Matt, I find it interesting that you draw comparisons with Pine Valley and Plainfield rather than an analogue in GB&I. I think that's apt, because the 8th at Bayonne seems the least likely of all the holes on the course to be comparable with something from one of the classic overseas links. I'm not knocking the hole--it's a thriller. But I will say based on its features and playing strategies that it is very American in style and substance.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Bayonne's 8th Hole ... Par-5 Supreme !!!
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2006, 11:34:50 PM »
Tom:  I would agree with that.  The earthmoving may look Irish, but the greens contours are more American, and the bump-and-run game is not that much in play.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne's 8th Hole ... Par-5 Supreme !!!
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2006, 08:45:01 AM »
I love the view of Manhatten in the background and the ships, smoke stack etc... It does look more American than Irish, but so what, I look forward to playing it.
Mr Hurricane

Matt_Ward

Re:Bayonne's 8th Hole ... Par-5 Supreme !!!
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2006, 10:59:14 AM »
Guys, Guys c'mon please -- do you want the folks there to give passports to Irish citizenry with all the pubs included and import the sheep at Lahinch to make it an authentic Irish links? The place is located in Bayonne, NJ -- hello anybody home?

Does anyone need mapquest to know where that is and what the site was prior to the golf construction?

Give me a break please. NO ONE SAID THE COURSE IS A COMPLETE AUTHENTIC TRUE LINKS TYPE COURSE.

The singular fact is that for all those pissing and moaning about the Irish linkage the simple FACT is that the course does incorporate many of the same features -- from the rolling, bumpy fairways that don't leave many level lies to the greens which fall-off in any number of directions and so forth and so on.

Tom D said, " ...and the bump-and-run game is not that much in play."

Tom -- help me out how do you presume such a thing simply from looking at photos? I played the course and integration of the ground game does exist on a number of holes at Bayonne.
The course right now is playing a bit slower because of recent rains that have been a constant issue this summer here in the greater NYC metro area. The fairway turf uses fescue and when up to full speed the bounce will be alive and well on any number of holes there. I played several bump and run shots when there and it will be a main feature for those playing the course.

Tom Dunne:

Forced carries on #8 ? Really. The approach does require a pitch over the march area -- so what? I can name plenty of holes -- the 13th and 15th at Augusta have forced carries as well. Frankly, the carry required is subject to how close you wish to play your second shot to the lay-up corridor that Jin included with his photo set of the hole.

The tee shot you see pictured gives the allusion of a massive forced carry but if the player plays from the appropriate tee box the carry required is not anywhere near the Herculean effort some, including yourself, are suggesting.

Tom, another point you misunderstood that I made. I simply opined that the qualities of the 8th hole are on par with two other superb NJ par-5's -- the 12th at Plainfield and the 15th at Pine Valley.

When you say the hole isn't links-like allow me to refresh your memory -- I never said it was. The hole presents another side of the course. However, think of the holes that you face throughout the front nine and a good number of them on the back. The re-creation of Irish / Scottish links by Bergstol has come off quite well and works in fine fashion.

The 8th is a well crafted risk and reward type hole. Players have to decide very carefully how much is appropriate for them to handle. The options from start to finish are numerous.

Allow me to point out holes where the ball CAN be bounced onto the following surfaces -- 3rd, 4th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 17th and 18th. The "broken ground" you refer to is nothing more than separation points often used on real links courses. In many cases the "broken ground" does allow for play to take place there but there's no guarantee of that happening and that is no different than what you see with a number of courses from across the pond that are links oriented. One other thing -- the 16th plays considerably downhill and often downwind -- the demands presented there are quite appropriate and not onerous.

I'll say this again -- if people play the appropriate tee boxes the requirements are very reasonable.

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne's 8th Hole ... Par-5 Supreme !!!
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2006, 11:35:39 AM »
Matt, there's no "pissing and moaning" going on, at least not from me. You're right, "no one said the course is a complete authentic true links", though the club's website says that it "will play like an American cousin to Royal County Down, Turnberry and Ballybunion." And I happen to think that statement is broadly accurate. I thoroughly enjoyed Bayonne--I was just interested in looking at this 8th hole in the context of the rest of the course.

My point was simply that the 8th hole, while heroic, strategic, and great fun to play, felt more American in spirit (nothing wrong with that) than the many holes where you appropriately point out that the ball can be bounced on the green. I'm not of the mind that every hole requires that option at all. Nor did I describe either of the forced carries on the 8th (yes, there are two) as "onerous". You've really read a lot into my last post, and I actually happen to agree with pretty much everything you've written about Bayonne. Good thing, too!  :)

Matt_Ward

Re:Bayonne's 8th Hole ... Par-5 Supreme !!!
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2006, 11:45:49 AM »
Tom D:

Mea culpa on my part.

I get a bit peeved when I hear people opine on how a course plays when they have not played it (not directed at you).

Keep in mind that nearly clubs tend to play up their characteristics on their Websites. Chest beating is OK provided there's beef there. Bayonne has plenty of beef as you well know.

Whether the 8th hole is Irish, American or a hybrid -- the simple question is does the hole work well given what its primary purpose is? On that count -- I believe you and I are in general agreement that it does to what it sets out to do.

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