[PCCraig]

The following is an excerpt from Ron Witten's Review of Liverpool:

"Best that members of Royal O.B. enjoy this Open as its last hurrah. Sooner or later, every Open course will become obsolete, the Old Course at St. Andrews included. Someday the R&A will quit clinging to that which its name evokes and finally move on."

Very bold statement, no? I don't know much about Liverpool, but it looks like it's going to be a neat venue, very fun.

What I find disturbing is the statement about St. Andrews. I would like to hear from someone who knows a lot about it (Mr. Doak). I feel no other course has held up to time better, is it really so close to being obsolete???

I know T. Doak has a thread on this, but I didn't want to hack that.

thanks!

Pat Craig

[Tom_Doak]

Well, they do keep lengthening The Old Course.  But they are about out of room, and when that happens, I think it will be time to do something about the ball or the equipment.

If The Old Course ever really becomes obsolete, then the sport of golf is right behind it.

I'm really curious about Hoylake this week.  Like a true links course, the scoring will be entirely dependent on the weather ... and yet people will react as though it was all about the architecture.

[ForkaB]

All links courses (inclduing the Old Course) are obsolete, if your definition of "obsolete" is something like "unable to force players to hit the shots and the clubs that organizers want them to hit or think they should hit (because Hogan hit them 50 years ago, or whatever).  If the weather holds this week, Hoylake is going to give the R&A paroxysms of displeasure.  It has been, hot, Hot, HOt, HOT!!! over here for a week and the course will be as fast and firm as any of TE Paul's old girl friends.

I fatted a 4-iron 260+ a few days ago at Dornoch.  God knows what "these guys (who) are good" are going to do in these sorts of conditions.

It's going to play with their little heads, however.  Put your money on the guys with brains, imagination, technique and patience........

[Philip Gawith]

I agree with Rich, though i would add the word "touch". What is so fascinating about these conditions is that they will largely nullify the advantages of length, so the list of potential winners is much longer than usual. It is just going to  be fascinating watching how people get the ball close to the hole. Hoylake's greens are possibly a little less severe than on some other Major courses, but with the course so firm and lots of deep bunkers around, i think there will be a fair bit of challenge around.

Also,you have to think that the perversities/"unfairness" of links golf will be more in evidence than ever, so step forward he of equable temperament! I think one of the Australians will be close at the end - with very firm ground and lots of sand, these conditions have a bit of the sandbelt about them.

[James Edwards]

""Put your money on the guys with brains, imagination, technique and patience........ ""

Rich, so who comes under this category?  Im struggling for names? Donald? Singh?

[Sean_A]

The name that meets this criteria is Woods.  Though I think a non American will win this year.  God knows who.  It is really wide open and ripe for a rank outsider to run away with the jug.  I am thinking that Adam Scott ain't a bad bet at ~ 40-1.  Els at ~16-1 looks tempting.  I wouldn't be surprised if somebody on very long odds wins this year.

Ciao

Sean

[ForkaB]

James

I was thinking Tiger--if he has gotten over the loss of his Dad enough to get his game head on.  I also though Donald might be a good bet, but not sure he could cope with the pressure of being England's home boy if he gets close to winning.  My outside bet is Monty--seems to have his head on straight (for him), playing well and he's really English in upbringing and at heart anyway.

[James Edwards]

Rich,

Yes, of course Tiger...

..but Monty does not for me have the "imagination" part in my view - he's very 2 Dimensional (sorry if this offends anyone) I think thats why he does well in the US Open all the time - because he knows how to play golf in ideal conditions for straight hitting [apart from the 72 hole  ).

[Eric Franzen]

..but Monty does not for me have the "imagination" part in my view - he's very 2 Dimensional (sorry if this offends anyone) I think thats why he does well in the US Open all the time - because he knows how to play golf in ideal conditions for straight hitting [apart from the 72 hole  ).

I won't agree on that.

Monty has a couple of decent US Open, yes. But he also faired pretty good when it comes to dealing with the unique challenges that links golf offers.
Monty was 2nd in last years Open at St Andrews and also captured Dunhill Links a couple of years ago. So, I don't see how he can be accused of being very two dimensional with that resume in mind.

[Brent Hutto]

So if Geoff Ogilvy wins at Hoylake, is he suddenly the second or third best player in the world? Or would it just make him this decade's Mark O'Meara?

My pick is J.M. Olazabal. When it comes to creativity and imagination he's as talented as anyone out there not named Tiger. The sparser than usual rough will be to his benefit, he played well in the Open last year and heaven knows he has all the shots. The whole field will have to deal with OB, if he can limit himself to no more than one or two penalties he'll be in contention come the weekend.

[ForkaB]

James

I think you give Monty too much credit.  He's one-dimensional at best.  But, in that one dimension he can really golf his ball!  I see him capable of putting on a "Rain Man" type of idiot savant display if he can drive the demons and thoughts of blondes (past, present and future) out of his mind.

Sean

What are the odds on Ms. Doubtfire?

[BCrosby]

Of course they are obsolete. If obsolete means allowing players to go low. Given modern equipment, I can't think of a course that is not obsolete - absent funky tournament setups.

But that is the rub isn't it?

Do you want to force winning scores back towards par with Winged Foot-esque nuttiness? Or do you prefer the R&A approach that gives great players a chance to execute the kind of shots that makes them great players - and allow the winner to post a low number?

My vote goes to the R&A.

Bob

[JohnV]

Dave,

Don't forget:

(5) Any putter longer than 36 inches in length.

[ForkaB]

I think we need to be mindful of "game improvement" vs. "game obseleting" technologies.  The former is fine.  The latter is the problem, and if I sat on any of these policy boards, that's the position I'd take.  

This argument seems to make "cheater lines" absolutely hunky dory.  Are you sure this is what you want, Dave?

PS--and yes, the felt tip pen is a "technology."  OTM didn't have them in his days.....

[JR Potts]

Especially considering that "game improvement" is a purely subjective term.  I can't hit the broad side of a barn with one of those putting monstrosities.

[Garland Bayley]

...now hold on just one cotton pickin' minute...  

Seriously, I can make the straight faced argument that the long putter is different.  It does nothign to render a golf course obselete.  I think we need to be mindful of "game improvement" vs. "game obseleting" technologies.  The former is fine.  The latter is the problem, and if I sat on any of these policy boards, that's the position I'd take.  

I think you've got that wrong. The technologies of which you speak are not "game improvement" technologies. They are "game rescue" technologies. If you want to improve your game, learn to play with blades and the short putter.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I stand by the long putter as game improvement technology that is, and should remain, legal under the rules.  

Dave, May I call you Dave?

We would be happy to let you play with the long putter as long as your driver and other clubs remain firmly implanted in your belly (or chest as the case may be) during your swing.
 

[Garland Bayley]

Dave,

I'll go out an play spit grip if you go out and play with all clubs firmly in contact with your belly during the swing. Although I would probably had no chance against you otherwise, I think that is one way I could beat you.
 

[James Bennett]

Is Corey Pavin playing?  It will be interesting to see his endeavours on a course conducive to the ground game. I'd love to see him finish in the top dozen.

And don't forget the Kiwi who showed his mastery at firm and fast last year at Pinehurst #2.  He has shown similar form at Paraparumu on baked fairways as well as his UK links form.

James B

[Tom_Doak]

Now that Dr. Phil has exorcised his demons, maybe Jean van de Velde can make a comeback at Hoylake.  Jean if you are out there lurking:  no burns!

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