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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Do You Like This: The Sequel
« on: July 07, 2006, 10:08:09 AM »
Glenn was a good sport yesterday so I thought I'd throw him a bone (or maybe not ;)).  Conceptually, I really like the upper fairway tongue on this 200+ yard par three, but the player is not invited to use it, resulting in a hole that is a little incongruous in my book:



What sayeth ya'll.

Mike
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 10:10:57 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
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Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2006, 10:25:07 AM »
Mike, not sure I understand what the point is of the patch of fairway.  If it was a bailout for someone who could not reach the green, fine, but it seems to be almost the same distance as the green, and a harder target to hit.

Though it might look kinda cool for a ball to land up top, take the slope, and then slowly roll left, disappear behind the bunker, reappearing as it slowly continues left across the green, and then just catch the false front and roll back off the green and into the rough short.
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Dale_McCallon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2006, 10:32:23 AM »
Bogey,

You've been spending too much time on the east coast--where did you learn a word like incongruous?
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Tom Zeni

Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2006, 10:37:49 AM »
I sayeth that finding 4 legit pin placements would be a challenge.
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Glenn Spencer

Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2006, 10:38:58 AM »
Depending on the length, that actually does not look too bad either. Unfortunately, pictures do not tell a 1000 words in golf. I bet some stupid stuff goes on on this hole, but probably not a bad hole at all. I will never play it, but it does look nice. A front right pin would be pretty stupid though and I am not a fan of that bunker that is closest to the tee of the two right.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2006, 11:46:28 AM »
I've seen several holes a bit like that in recent years.  The 8th at Kingsbarns springs to mind, though it's not 200 yards.
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2006, 12:04:52 PM »
I'd like to see an overhead diagram of this hole since the photo may be quite deceptive of how far back the slope is off the fairway tongue and diagonal back to the green.  

What I think I see is a fairway tongue that is a good 30-50 yards forward of the green with a kickslope redan style back to the various left middle and back left plateau pins.  But, with that false front ahead of the present pin which is slightly oriented reverse redanish, I can see a ball landing there kicking to back right pins, hidden from this view over the high rise of the bunker and slope of the fairway kick slope.  If the green goes significantly back in that hidden area, I think you almost have a dual nader-redan, which to my mind would be brilliant.  Sort of a GCA version of a palindrome... ;D

Where is this hole, who designed it?  Is there green in back right hidden from view?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 12:07:45 PM by RJ_Daley »
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2006, 12:12:05 PM »
Andy,

I agree with your comment.  I haven't played the hole, but will offer the following observations:

Initially I did not care for the deep center bunker (and like Glenn see no need to double up there) but it does suggest serve to bifurcate (like that one, Dale?) the line of approach and create a genuine option.  

If the green is extremely deep front to back, the hole is two-dimensional, at least for the mid capper, in that it can be approached head on to a front pin, presumably playing around 165 yards with a nice backstop, or the right-hand kickplate can be used to sling a similar shot another 30 yards to the rear of the green.  Given the orientation of the spine in the green, however, it appears that a ball would merely kick dead left, failing to reach the rear of the green.  Perhaps the spine should be angled off the left-hand shoulder along a 10 o-clock to 4 o-clock axis consistent with the traditional redan green orientation.  

Another thought would be to shift the green further left toward the creek to make the direct approach more precarious and eliminate the mound/shoulder on the left side of the green.  Suddenly bringing the ball in from the right is more appealing.  

I also agree that the fairway tongue should be more expansive, perhaps extending farther to the rear.  

I don't care for the left-hand bunker but it could be pinched into the green to create more interest to the front pin location.  A little false front might help there to.

There.  The committee has created a monster!

Mike
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rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2006, 12:14:23 PM »
I would like to see the tee moved 20 yards to the right...based on this photograph alone.
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2006, 12:17:30 PM »
Dick,

This hole is at the recently opened Olde Stone Golf Club in Bowling Green, KY designed by Arthur Hills.

I liked your comments but can't answer any of the questions.  I hope to get up there soon and hit several shots on this hole, employing the Hendren-Cue-The-Cute-Kids-To-Run-Out-On-The-Green-Baby-Carve-Push-Slice (tm) and will follow up with a report.

I'm no Art Hills apologist but somebody needs to throw the flag when the boys are piling on.  

Also, wouldn't it be redannader?

Mike
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 12:28:39 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2006, 12:28:46 PM »
Can you imagine your impression if you stepped on this tee and saw only the very tip of the flag, deep in the back right rear, right of the fronting bunker and over and beyond the fairway tongue that you see now?  I think you'd go, "what the *!!?  :o
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Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2006, 01:33:33 PM »
This hole reminds me of a par 3 at Pete Dye's Carmel Valley Ranch course which is very wide but shallow and has 3 separate levels, flowing down from left to right. You can hit to the edge of the upper tier and the ball will roll all the way down to the lower level. Cannot recall which hole but it certainly was different.

As for this hole, wouldnt a collection area in front be effective? It would be more interesting deciding whether to putt up the hill or pitch it, depending on where the pin may be.
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Bill_McBride

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Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2006, 04:01:02 PM »
I would be interested in seeing if the right fairway slope would kick the ball leftward in Redan fashion.  There doesn't seem to be a lot of landing area width, but the slope is certainly there.
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Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2006, 05:13:51 PM »
Quote from: RJ_Daley on July 07, 2006, 12:28:46 PM
Can you imagine your impression if you stepped on this tee and saw only the very tip of the flag, deep in the back right rear, right of the fronting bunker and over and beyond the fairway tongue that you see now?  I think you'd go, "what the *!!?  :o

A nice, high cut played a little off the slope from the left side of the green.
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Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do You Like This: The Sequel
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2006, 05:45:09 PM »
Quote from: Ryan Simper on July 07, 2006, 12:14:23 PM
I would like to see the tee moved 20 yards to the right...based on this photograph alone.


I would like to see the front middle bunkers moved 20 yards LEFT ... based on this photograph alone.

Better yet, eliminate the front bunkers, mow the turf short ...

Even better yet, fill in and level the distance between the tee and green so that it is all fairway length turf ...
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