News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #75 on: July 10, 2006, 06:52:35 PM »

It is funny that you bring up Oak Pointe. Without a word of a lie, my friend's parents moved to Brighton a couple of years ago, his dad belongs to the little course, because he did not like the big one. Did Hills do both? I went over to meet my buddy before I knew who did the place and I was left wondering how a few of those holes were supposed to be played. I really wish you would add a few comments on Pipestone since you have seen it firsthand. Is Oak Pointe were the Hills society should have its first meeting? Is it there or Pipestone. I think the Pipestone, Fox Run, Shaker Run and Legendary Run quartet is simply unforgettable.


Glenn:

I grew up in Brighton, playing the "little course" before Oak Pointe was built. Hills started construction on that after I left for college. The original course was built as part of Burroughs Farms, an employee retreat for the Burroughs corporation. I don't know who the original design is attributable to. Unfortunately, I'll never be able to play that course again as I remember it from my teenage years, as it was renovated by Jerry Matthews a few years ago.

David W:

Point of clarification on the original course. Jim Dewling was the head pro at Burroughs before it was called Oak Pointe. He became one of the owners of the original course before the Honors was built, which became his first foray into development when they created the subdivision and golf course on the western part of the property. All of the land where the Honors/residential sits was recreational trails/cabins/beach/ball fields/etc. for Burroughs. Actually, my first employment ever was at the snack bar down by the lake which now sits along #18. That lasted about 2 days, when I realized I needed a day off to go watch the final round of the '85 Open at Oakland Hills  ::)

The old course was called Oak Pointe even before the Honors became the best course in the state ;D

Regards,

Sobe
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 06:57:02 PM by Doug Sobieski »

Glenn Spencer

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2006, 07:56:50 PM »
Ok guys I will come clean. Yes I do like Art personally and respect him as an professional architect. However, I am not wild about his courses either. I do love to see the kind of from the heart disgust for him as we move closer to football season. My passionate dislike for all things Auburn, arkansas, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee and especially Ole Miss gives me high respect for anyone with a blackspot in their heart big enough to stay on task the way Wigs, Glenn and others have done on Art Hills the last few months. By the by arkansas does not deserve a capital letter.

Tiger,

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are LSU aren't you? If so, I can't possibly be in any trouble then ;D my team is Miami. Our collective heads still hurt from that beating. It takes a lot to get the Canes to quit, but you guys did it.

Doug,
Good story, still hoping for some Pipestone opinions though.

David,

I couldn't have seen that then. I was under the impression that he was involved in 5 and 6. 9 was a little perplexing, but I didn't know any better.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 07:58:35 PM by Glenn Spencer »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2006, 09:06:50 PM »
Dave

How did Hills destroy U of M?  For all the hullabaloo not much was actually done to the course.  The routing is the same.  The greens are the same.  Trees were taken out.  Bunkering was replaced and some new ones added.  Some tees were worked on.  The nines were switched.  I will grant that the University didn't get its money's worth because Hills was so ineffectual.  But this is a long way from destroying the course.  The way I see it, the bunkering is dull, but not a major issue.  Other than that I have no real complaints, nor any real praise...  

Ciao

Sean

Sean,

The bunkering was the soul of the course.  Maxwell may have build the finest green complexes anywhere on the planet not in sand soil and Hills ripped them apart so they could be machine raked.  I am guessing you did not play UofM before Hills, back when the bunkering was big, bad and mean.  Here is an article I wrote that never got published:  

University Of Michigan (The Death of a Classic)

I returned to my Alma Matter (The University of Michigan) last night to play the golf course.  I have played the course three times in the thirteen years since I graduated.  Each time was in an outing and I was forced to ride a cart.  This was the first time I had walked since college and my first real opportunity to look at what Art Hills did to the course I learned to golf at.  After 60 years of play and the rough treatment this old gem gets during football season, it needed a restoration job.  Why does it matter?  Because UofM is a special place.  The greens are magical.  The routing is inspired.  #2 and #4 are two of the best holes in the state.  UofM’s course used to be one of the best five university courses in the country and should be a state treasure.

Unfortunately, over time, the beautiful bunker work had fallen into disrepair.  Deft hands were required to restore her to her glory.  Tragically, the University of Michigan course that I loved so dearly no longer exists.  I suggest that the next meeting of Redesign University take place here so everyone can see what a horrible job, done at the hands of a talentless butcher can do to a historically significant piece of property.  Every single one of the brilliant MacKenzie bunkers has been shallowed, re-faced and made maintenance friendly.  The deepest bunker on the course is now no more than two feet below the surface.  I am sure the Super loves these easy draining Hills bunkers but they do not fit.  Hills ripped the soul from this course when he homogenized its most distinguishable trait.  He also built seven or eight new tees so that he could add distance.  Of course, he does not understand playable lanes, so they do not fit the design intent at all.  The funniest are the new tee on #3, that he built on the side of a building, shaped completely wrong for the hole or the new tee he put directly behind a tree stand on #17.  Let’s take a critical eye to #3.  MacKenzie built a wonderful mid-length par five.  The hole goes out 225 yards and then starts turning to the left.  The fairway is also sloped rather severely to the left.  MacKenzie placed a terrific cross-bunker at the exterior edge of the dogleg, on top of the hill.  The entire left side is mirrored in heavy trees.  The tee shot required is a fade.  A draw will hit the fairway and (due to the left canter of the slope) kick into the trees.  A slice will end up in the sand trap.  A properly executed fade will bounce into the grain of the fairway and take the slope down allowing a shot at the green in two or an easy lay-up.  Hills decided to add distance to this hole.  He built the tee box back and to the left.  There is now no shot.  A fade cannot be hit since it catches the trees on the left.  A draw cannot be hit for the reasons discussed above.  Adding length was not necessarily wrong.  There were legitimate concerns over where MacKenzie had placed the original exterior bunker and whether the length of drives today had rendered it out of play.  Someone with a clue would have built the new box back right to allow for the proper line of play to still be used.

I have been told by a very reliable source that the original plans exist and Hills did not want to see them.  He preferred to wing it and do it his way.  What the hell, aren't Art Hill and Dr. Alister MacKenzie mentioned in the same breath?  The part of this that makes me the most insane is that Art Hills is not a Michigan man - to borrow a Bo phrase.  Mike Devries went to Michigan and is the best young architect I have seen at emulating MacKenzie's style.  Tom Doak has gotten rave reviews for his restoration work on MacKenzie courses.  Tom and Mike are also both members of a very well respected MacKenzie course and know his stuff cold.  Hell, they could have hired a drooling idiot and he at least would have known he was a drooling idiot and said, "Wow, here are MacKenzie's plans, why not do it this way."  Mike and Tom both show MacKenzie's flare in their work.  It is a crying shame that the regents made the decision that they did in hiring Hills but I understand why.  

Early on in my sales career, I listened to a lecture by a very well respected executive.  He said something that has always stuck with me - "No one was ever fired for buying IBM."  His point was that taking chances incurs risk but sticking with a known commodity allows you to cover your ass.  If IBM screwed up, you could always say, “It was IBM, how could I have known."  I think that University regents make cowardly decisions because they are more concerned about their jobs and the perks that go with them than doing the right thing.  Art Hills has done 20+ courses in Michigan.  Who cares if most of them are garbage?  Everyone knows his name.  He was the safe choice.  

I am fighting windmills today in my criticism.  What if Mike Devries (Or Tom Doak) was hired and the course was criticized for having bunkers that were too penal (MacKenzie's intent).  The regents would be roasted for hiring a rookie when the great Art Hills would have done the job.  It is sad that there is no steward for the land.  I remember a silly cartoon by Dr. Seuss with a character called The Lorax.  He spent the whole cartoon saying, "I am the Lorax and I speak for the trees."  All we can do is keep speaking for the trees (Or in this case our beloved courses) and hope that one day, someone will listen.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2006, 09:37:01 PM »
Glenn, It was a great night to be a Tiger. Last year was really a strange one for everyone in the state and the univeristy. The Tigers came out to make sure everyone, especially Miami, knew they really were a good team. I should add that a really typical comment after a fun win like that is nice picture, it looks like your sister. She was in my room last night. Sorry I could not resist returning to the ole college chat.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 09:39:59 PM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Glenn Spencer

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2006, 10:23:48 PM »
Dave

How did Hills destroy U of M?  For all the hullabaloo not much was actually done to the course.  The routing is the same.  The greens are the same.  Trees were taken out.  Bunkering was replaced and some new ones added.  Some tees were worked on.  The nines were switched.  I will grant that the University didn't get its money's worth because Hills was so ineffectual.  But this is a long way from destroying the course.  The way I see it, the bunkering is dull, but not a major issue.  Other than that I have no real complaints, nor any real praise...  

Ciao

Sean

Sean,

The bunkering was the soul of the course.  Maxwell may have build the finest green complexes anywhere on the planet not in sand soil and Hills ripped them apart so they could be machine raked.  I am guessing you did not play UofM before Hills, back when the bunkering was big, bad and mean.  Here is an article I wrote that never got published:  

University Of Michigan (The Death of a Classic)

I returned to my Alma Matter (The University of Michigan) last night to play the golf course.  I have played the course three times in the thirteen years since I graduated.  Each time was in an outing and I was forced to ride a cart.  This was the first time I had walked since college and my first real opportunity to look at what Art Hills did to the course I learned to golf at.  After 60 years of play and the rough treatment this old gem gets during football season, it needed a restoration job.  Why does it matter?  Because UofM is a special place.  The greens are magical.  The routing is inspired.  #2 and #4 are two of the best holes in the state.  UofM’s course used to be one of the best five university courses in the country and should be a state treasure.

Unfortunately, over time, the beautiful bunker work had fallen into disrepair.  Deft hands were required to restore her to her glory.  Tragically, the University of Michigan course that I loved so dearly no longer exists.  I suggest that the next meeting of Redesign University take place here so everyone can see what a horrible job, done at the hands of a talentless butcher can do to a historically significant piece of property.  Every single one of the brilliant MacKenzie bunkers has been shallowed, re-faced and made maintenance friendly.  The deepest bunker on the course is now no more than two feet below the surface.  I am sure the Super loves these easy draining Hills bunkers but they do not fit.  Hills ripped the soul from this course when he homogenized its most distinguishable trait.  He also built seven or eight new tees so that he could add distance.  Of course, he does not understand playable lanes, so they do not fit the design intent at all.  The funniest are the new tee on #3, that he built on the side of a building, shaped completely wrong for the hole or the new tee he put directly behind a tree stand on #17.  Let’s take a critical eye to #3.  MacKenzie built a wonderful mid-length par five.  The hole goes out 225 yards and then starts turning to the left.  The fairway is also sloped rather severely to the left.  MacKenzie placed a terrific cross-bunker at the exterior edge of the dogleg, on top of the hill.  The entire left side is mirrored in heavy trees.  The tee shot required is a fade.  A draw will hit the fairway and (due to the left canter of the slope) kick into the trees.  A slice will end up in the sand trap.  A properly executed fade will bounce into the grain of the fairway and take the slope down allowing a shot at the green in two or an easy lay-up.  Hills decided to add distance to this hole.  He built the tee box back and to the left.  There is now no shot.  A fade cannot be hit since it catches the trees on the left.  A draw cannot be hit for the reasons discussed above.  Adding length was not necessarily wrong.  There were legitimate concerns over where MacKenzie had placed the original exterior bunker and whether the length of drives today had rendered it out of play.  Someone with a clue would have built the new box back right to allow for the proper line of play to still be used.

I have been told by a very reliable source that the original plans exist and Hills did not want to see them.  He preferred to wing it and do it his way.  What the hell, aren't Art Hill and Dr. Alister MacKenzie mentioned in the same breath?  The part of this that makes me the most insane is that Art Hills is not a Michigan man - to borrow a Bo phrase.  Mike Devries went to Michigan and is the best young architect I have seen at emulating MacKenzie's style.  Tom Doak has gotten rave reviews for his restoration work on MacKenzie courses.  Tom and Mike are also both members of a very well respected MacKenzie course and know his stuff cold.  Hell, they could have hired a drooling idiot and he at least would have known he was a drooling idiot and said, "Wow, here are MacKenzie's plans, why not do it this way."  Mike and Tom both show MacKenzie's flare in their work.  It is a crying shame that the regents made the decision that they did in hiring Hills but I understand why.  

Early on in my sales career, I listened to a lecture by a very well respected executive.  He said something that has always stuck with me - "No one was ever fired for buying IBM."  His point was that taking chances incurs risk but sticking with a known commodity allows you to cover your ass.  If IBM screwed up, you could always say, “It was IBM, how could I have known."  I think that University regents make cowardly decisions because they are more concerned about their jobs and the perks that go with them than doing the right thing.  Art Hills has done 20+ courses in Michigan.  Who cares if most of them are garbage?  Everyone knows his name.  He was the safe choice.  

I am fighting windmills today in my criticism.  What if Mike Devries (Or Tom Doak) was hired and the course was criticized for having bunkers that were too penal (MacKenzie's intent).  The regents would be roasted for hiring a rookie when the great Art Hills would have done the job.  It is sad that there is no steward for the land.  I remember a silly cartoon by Dr. Seuss with a character called The Lorax.  He spent the whole cartoon saying, "I am the Lorax and I speak for the trees."  All we can do is keep speaking for the trees (Or in this case our beloved courses) and hope that one day, someone will listen.


Doesn't this say it all? Imagine what happens when he starts from scratch on a site that is not Bay Harbor. Wait, no need to imagine, come to Ohio and enjoy all the wonderment that is Pipestone, Longaberger, Shaker Run and others.

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2006, 10:42:40 PM »
Ironically, I just played one of Art's courses today that I last played about 13 years ago.  It has benefited greatly from the changes over the years, with the exception of the housing, which I assume he was stuck with by the developer to pay for the project.  Anyway, to offer something constructive to this discussion, I would have to say that given the Hills courses I have played in my life 20+ mostly here in Michigan, they all have one common weakness.  Each one is comprised of holes that are obsessed with the centerline of design or the center of the fairway.  This approach results in what comes across and presents as a series of execution based holes that are one dimensional in their approach of negotiation, leaving them very repetitive tests. I can honestly say I have never played a Hills course that I would want to play more than once a year.  If Art’s designs ever embraced edge play through contouring and green design many of those courses would become fun and variable challenges in an instant and would become very addictive repeatable tests. It would begin with changing the approach to green design and approach bunkering coupled with the elimination of all those damn target and framing bunkers.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Doug Ralston

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #81 on: July 11, 2006, 08:50:13 AM »
Oh, come on;

I let Glenn rave on about courses I have not played; like Pipestone and Longaberger [BTW, several friends HAVE played Longaberger, and they were gleeful!].

But I HAVE played Shaker Run. Perhaps because I play from shorter tees, I missed the terrible 6th hole's deficiencies. But Shaker Run is a GREAT course......not merely good. Glenn's obvious obsession with finding fault with Art Hills is way off there.

Is the ego of this site at stake here? The fact that Shaker Run is constantly voted by golfers to be the best public in Ohio makes it automatically negative to 'golf purists'?

BTW, the best course designer whom I have played a significant number of creations from is Dr Michael Hurdzan IMHO. I have not seen him mentioned here. Is he too 'local'? No; Annbriar, Bully Pulpit, Olde Stonewall, Little Mountain, Eaglesticks are well thought of, along with Lassing Point, Wasioto Winds, Mineral Mound, The Oaks, The Willows etc more near myself. Many others. Any thoughts on his skills?

Doug

Chris Burgard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2006, 08:59:58 AM »

Hey Glenn,

Better act quickly.

"Works of Art - Golf Course Designs by Arthur Hills" is for sale right now on Ebay.

Not only is it only $55...but it is also signed!!

Yours truly,
Chris  ;D


David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2006, 09:18:28 AM »
Sean,

I was their '85 - '89.  Assuming you had a beer or two at O'Sullivan's, I was one of the stiffs working my way through college who probably overserved you in hopes of a bigger tip.  Part of the fun of this is that clearly people see different things.  Given that I know, DeVries would have done it for free, I put hiring Hills 4th on the list of stupid things my University has done since I left college (#1 - Letting Ed Martin hang around the program, #2 - Brian Ellerby, #3 - Tommy Amaker).

Doug Ralston - I have about 1,700 posts that certainly show I am not a golf purist.  I defend Fazio over and over and have been critical (Extremely so in one case) of Doak's work.  Jim Thompson articulated what I could not put my hands on with Hills.  I don't begrudge your liking his work (These are all opinions) but believe me when I tell you that my dislike of it is well thought out, discussed ad nausem and certainly not becuase of group think.  As for Dr. Hurzdan (Which would be a different thread) I think Calusa Pines is brilliant, am one of the few who really like Naples National and am not sure I have seen much else of his work.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Glenn Spencer

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2006, 09:38:28 AM »
Sean,

I was their '85 - '89.  Assuming you had a beer or two at O'Sullivan's, I was one of the stiffs working my way through college who probably overserved you in hopes of a bigger tip.  Part of the fun of this is that clearly people see different things.  Given that I know, DeVries would have done it for free, I put hiring Hills 4th on the list of stupid things my University has done since I left college (#1 - Letting Ed Martin hang around the program, #2 - Brian Ellerby, #3 - Tommy Amaker).

Doug Ralston - I have about 1,700 posts that certainly show I am not a golf purist.  I defend Fazio over and over and have been critical (Extremely so in one case) of Doak's work.  Jim Thompson articulated what I could not put my hands on with Hills.  I don't begrudge your liking his work (These are all opinions) but believe me when I tell you that my dislike of it is well thought out, discussed ad nausem and certainly not becuase of group think.  As for Dr. Hurzdan (Which would be a different thread) I think Calusa Pines is brilliant, am one of the few who really like Naples National and am not sure I have seen much else of his work.

Isn't Lloyd 'give up a 2-score lead' Carr still there?

Glenn Spencer

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2006, 09:40:30 AM »

Hey Glenn,

Better act quickly.

"Works of Art - Golf Course Designs by Arthur Hills" is for sale right now on Ebay.

Not only is it only $55...but it is also signed!!

Yours truly,
Chris  ;D



I will have to take down a few Longaberger and Bay Harbor pictures to make room, but this should go nicely!!!

Doug Ralston

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #86 on: July 11, 2006, 10:02:04 AM »
David;

Good point about a new thread.......so I did.

My friend and I have seen so much on Michigan golf the we are making plans to 'attack' those courses in the next couple years. Since Art Hills has so many up there, naturally there are a couple on our 'wish list'. We definitely will try Shepard's Hollow, and if we can time a bargain, will play Bay Harbour. Maybe that will help me round out my impressions of his work.

Meanwhile, Glenn's comments to the contrary, it is hard to see many negatives in the beautiful Shaker Run. If you come Cincyward, give it a try.

And I know very few here will ever get to obscure Eastern Kentucky to play Eagle Ridge, but I could wish. It is unique.

Doug

Glenn Spencer

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #87 on: July 11, 2006, 10:03:48 AM »
Oh, come on;

I let Glenn rave on about courses I have not played; like Pipestone and Longaberger [BTW, several friends HAVE played Longaberger, and they were gleeful!].

But I HAVE played Shaker Run. Perhaps because I play from shorter tees, I missed the terrible 6th hole's deficiencies. But Shaker Run is a GREAT course......not merely good. Glenn's obvious obsession with finding fault with Art Hills is way off there.

Is the ego of this site at stake here? The fact that Shaker Run is constantly voted by golfers to be the best public in Ohio makes it automatically negative to 'golf purists'?

BTW, the best course designer whom I have played a significant number of creations from is Dr Michael Hurdzan IMHO. I have not seen him mentioned here. Is he too 'local'? No; Annbriar, Bully Pulpit, Olde Stonewall, Little Mountain, Eaglesticks are well thought of, along with Lassing Point, Wasioto Winds, Mineral Mound, The Oaks, The Willows etc more near myself. Many others. Any thoughts on his skills?

Doug

Doug,

Can you lay-out the positives of 6 for us? 3 has no options off the tee, it might be worse than 6. Is it gorgeous? Yes? Would I like to stand and hit 4-irons from the top of the hill all night long? Yes. The problem is getting there? The right side is death and the left is as well. The flat? Well, that is just too much of a gamble and the punishment does not fit the crime. 9? The big-hitter has more room than the short guy and if the wind is right there is nowhere to hit it. 12? The cart path is 15 feet fron the green, no ground options and the tee-shot is just weird. 14 is a bit strange and the tee-shot on 17 makes absolutely no sense. It is a fun course, yes, but only because it is on a perfect site and you couldn't help but build a few good holes. 5 is a great example, I think this hole is terrible, but it is fun to play. Where are you supposed to bail safely on that tee shot? Long right into the trees is usually my option. Does that make for a safe 4 on a par 3? No!! The guy pays no attention to making a safe bogey and that is what makes him a butcher. Is it fun? Sometimes? Is there a reason his 180 or whatever courses don't host anything? Without a doubt!!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 10:05:11 AM by Glenn Spencer »

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #88 on: July 11, 2006, 10:13:31 AM »
Is there a reason his 180 or whatever courses don't host anything? Without a doubt!!

Glenn - what qualifies as "anything" in your book?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Glenn Spencer

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #89 on: July 11, 2006, 10:30:26 AM »
Major, US Senior Open, US Womens Open, Womens Amateur, Amateur, Ryder Cup, World Golf Championship, Walker Cup, Curtis Cup, World Cup before WGC, Presidents Cup. Unless, I am missing something, that would do it.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 10:31:18 AM by Glenn Spencer »

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2006, 10:53:50 AM »
Several of you have mentioned courses from our goal of goals, the wonderous public golf courses of Michigan. Shepard's Hollow, Tullymore, Eagle Eye and Red hawk are on our 'want to' list, along with such notables as Timberstone, Pilgrim's Run, Black Lake [oops, another 'evil' designer, that Reese Jones.....sorry], and if we can summon the money for fees, Forest Dunes, Bay Harbor and of course Arcadia Bluffs.

If there are other public 'must plays' with GF under $100, I will certainly like to hear of them from you.

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned Greywalls.  If you're coming as far north as Timberstone, you've got to put in the extra hour and a half and come up to Marquette.  Our public rate is $125, but I can help you out with that (GCA'ers are my guests), and I can promise you a unique golf experience.  If rankings appeal to you, Golfweek puts us as the #2 public access course in the state right behind Arcadia Bluffs.

Our original course features 9 holes designed by William Langford, and is also quite fun to play.  Restoration efforts are in the pipeline a few years down the road.  Other smaller, lesser-known places that I enjoy in the UP are Indian Lake GC in Manistique and Iron River CC in Iron River (another Langford 9).  Timberstone is naturally a fun choice as well, and was really the first upscale course in the UP.

Drop me a line if you're headed up here and are seeking any additional suggestions.

Doug Ralston

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #91 on: July 11, 2006, 01:27:18 PM »
Brian;

I actually DID ask about Greywalls in another thread. We had it on our 'wish list', but have been trying to keep greens fees under $100. Unfortunately, my job has been such that our freedom to make the necessary 5-day trip to make such a plan worthwhile has been missing. Hoping by the end of the season though. If you really mean the offer, we may well take you up, and add it. Thanks very much.

Another course we are considering in the UP is 'Wild Bluffs' up at Brimley. Seems to have great reviews, though more for scenery [which I love!] even that golf.

Our 'dream trip' was a day of travel to Iron Mountain, for enjoying the Lake. Then Timberstone, Greywalls [or Wild Bluff], Black lake, Shepard's Hollow or Eagle Eye, and home.

Michigan has so many great public courses that we would love to make several trips there, over the next couple years.

Thanks again;

Doug

Doug Ralston

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #92 on: July 11, 2006, 01:34:34 PM »
Glenn;

I just remembered something. There is 36 holes of Art Hills' early efforts at Weatherwax. The courses are basic, unpretenious golf. Even in the small area he was given there is amazingly little crossover to other holes. Alway kept in good condition, it is simply good golf. I like Highlands/Meadows best, but the other two nines are quite playable.

You ever try them?

Doug

Glenn Spencer

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #93 on: July 11, 2006, 02:13:01 PM »
Doug,

I still need to hear the positives of number 6 at Shaker Run. I have played Weatherwax, we used to have High School Regionals and another gig out there. I agree, for the most part it is solid golf out there. There are times where I think the green are a little narrow for the shot that is being hit, actually quite a few. I am not a big fan of that par 5 4? on the 3rd from the left nine. The downhill par 5 on the first from the left nine is not very good either. For the most part, as far as not screwing up anything majorly, this is one of his better efforts. The par 4 2nd on the far right nine, dogleg-left downhill is really a pretty bad hole in my mind and so are a couple of the other downhill par 4's on that nine, but this is pretty good Hills, whatever that means.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #94 on: July 11, 2006, 02:35:23 PM »
I play Weatherwax regularly and it is good plain golf.  Much better than Pipestone which I was critical of earlier in this thread.

Glenn, from left to right they are Woodside, Meadows, Valley View, Highlands.  The worst hole out there is #7 on Highlands.  Short dogleg left with a narrow fairway, and from the tee one cannot discern which trees are on which side of the fairway.

There are lots of good solid holes out there, enough that I can pick out the worst but would have trouble picking my favorite.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #95 on: July 11, 2006, 03:35:46 PM »
JAL,

Thanks for the course names. I never minded #7 on Highlands that much, I just hit an iron and be done with it, but I can certainly see what you are saying. Is it me or do those greens feel weird when you walk on them? Unlike anything I have ever felt. I forgot, I hate 7 on the Meadows? I believe, the one with the cart path crossing th middle of the fairway. I don't like that second shot at all. Now that I think of it, it feels like there are a lot of similar holes out there. My clear-cut favorite is 1 on the Highlands, although I hate that the green is not closer to the water. I also like 3 on the Highlands, could be in line to be one of Hills' best par5's, if I like it.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #96 on: July 11, 2006, 03:38:34 PM »
It is killing me to be hurling all these compliments at Hills, but the par 3 6th on Highlands is a pretty good idea for a short par 3. There is something that doesn't sit right with me about it, but otherwise I love it or I could love it if it was somehow a little different.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arthur Hills - Good or Bad??
« Reply #97 on: July 11, 2006, 06:18:33 PM »
Glenn, I don't know if you've played there in awhile but they have taken out a ton of trees.

Highlands is my least favorite side because of stupid #7.  I do like the last two holes dead into the wind.

I like #5 on Woodside, the dogleg right with the tiny green.  Also #6, #8, and #9.

I like 7 on Meadows except for that cart path.  Both the par fives and the par three up the hill are good.

Valley View I don't care as much for.  I actually like #4 though, along with #7 and #8.

Really though, I can't complain about Weatherwax.  $29 to walk, it's a good course for any level player (it gets way long from the back tees).  I don't know about how the greens feel when you walk on them, but they roll true.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back