[Steve_Roths]

Having played the course a few times now I am still torn how much I like the non-dunes holes.  But when you see a picture like this you just remember how incredible the place really is.



Plus it has the best logo, though I have not had a chance to peruse Sebonack's pro shop yet...

[Joel_Stewart]

Its a fantastic hole, one of my favorite on the course.  The green can be 3 clubs depending on the pin location.

I believe the entire right hand side is man made by Jeff Bradley (it previously was a road) and not even sure if the left hand side is entirely natural?

[James Edwards]

Joel,

How long is the golf hole out of interest and whats back left behind the dune?

[TEPaul]

James;

There's a lot of green directly behind that big mound on the left in front of the green.

Speaking of that big mound in front of that green, it makes me think back now and with some personal interest and fondness for it.

When I first met Bill Coore (he came and stayed here to look at a project), he hauled out a bunch of photos of the raw site of Friar's Head. One of the photos was the untouched landform that is now the 10th hole.

His question was if I thought that big mound could be kept and used somehow in A golf hole? I said I certainly hoped it could be as it was such an unusual natural feature (although there were all kinds of huge mounds like that up in the dunes section of the untouched Friar's Head site before the course was built).

But that was all we spoke about at that time. The thought of how to use that mound and on what kind of hole never came up. For some reason I imagined the mound would be used on a par 4 to drive over (at that time I don't think Bill had actually routed Friar's Head or settled on a final routing).

When later I saw that they'd used it on a blindish par 3 I was a little surprised but I think it's a brilliant hole, and of course I'm glad they were able to find a way to use that mound (although originally it seemed to be a bit bigger than it is now).

Another natural landform feature that came up at that time was the huge "terrace" on the left of the LZ on #9. That was something I said I sure hoped they could keep and use somehow (it seemed pretty radical in its natural state as the fairway feel away to the right so steeply). I told Bill that if he did anything to that landform on #9, or before he did anything to it, he should go over to Rhode Island and look at the enormous "terrace" on the left in the LZ of Misquamicutt's #10.

[wsmorrison]

There's a large mound on the short par 4 15th? at Royal Dornoch that is very interesting and different than the present and proposed use of the mound at Friars Head.  

At Dornoch, for those playing safe and laying up short of the mound off the tee, it hides the green and landing area beyond.  Taking the bold carry over the mound brings the green full into view.  Hopefully Rich will chime in on how the hole plays...or I'll dig up his Experience Dornoch book  

[TEPaul]

There's another interesting aspect to the 10th at Friar's and that photo. Obviously that hole and that photo looks to be just an amazingly rugged natural landform, but the truth is they did do some earth-moving on that hole (other than the green and surround). Ken Bakst told us about it but he wouldn't say exactly where it was. I know where it is but I'm never going to say and I really do doubt anyone, at this point, could ever figure it out. And to me that's what great architects and architecture is all about----eg they did some earth-moving but they compeletly hid the "hand of man", so to speak. To me that's a form and a definition of "minimalism".  

[John Chilver-Stainer]

The Dune in front of the 10th is definitly impressive. Talk about « in your face ».
It’s been done before however what makes the difference here is the natural « non-maintenance » of the long grass on the dune itself. Visually it looks stunning however a question for the officanados.

If this was in front ot the 10th Green at Winged Foot West at the US Open – long Grass and all – how do you think the comments on the playabilty would be from
1) the PGA Tour players ?
2) the TV commentaters ?
3) the Members of Winged Foot ?
4) the Greenkeepers ?

My opinion

1) No problem with a head wind and holding green. Otherwise - is there room to stop the ball ?
2) Non commital
3) A short shot into the long grass will be too severely punished.
4) How do we maintain it ?

[TEPaul]

John C-S:

To answer your question----I don't know how this kind of thing would be accepted by those you mentioned if it were on Winged Foot but I think your question was basically answered this last week with the reactions of players and commentors at the US Women's Open at Newport C.C. The reactions seemed to be to almost automatically accept this kind of thing at that particular site and course and in a number of instances to praise it.

The comments of Dottie Pepper in that vein were definitely not lost on me when players's balls found their way into many of Newport's watery, hard-pan bunkers. She merely said; "Bunkers are supposed to be penal and because they should be the golfer should understand better the importance of not being in them."  

And it appeared the same basic reaction of acceptance was true with the really long grass in some areas of that golf course.

[James Edwards]

TP,

Thanks for the informative reply...

The reason for my question is because The Grove, recently designed by Kyle Philips in Watford England, and soon to be the site of the WGC Event later this year, has a 17th hole with a similar feature to the left hand side, short of the green.

The feature is by no means as big as that at FH, but behind the large mound, (completely blind) is a significant swale which is 2m? below the level of the green.

From the fairway it looks like the mound flanks the green but in fact, it is essentially a double hazard.  You hit over the top thinking youll be on the green but in fact you have a high chance of being in the bottom of the swale.

An excellent use of a large mound!

[Bill_McBride]

James, there is a huge amount of room behind that mound, and the green might be 10,000 square feet.  It is gigantic and you can only see maybe 40% of it from the tee!  As I recall - don't have my scorecard here and Tommy hasn't sent the yardage book if it's finished - the hole plays anywhere from 100 yards to 210 yards!

Imagine a completely blind pin directly behind that mound!  The green surface I think generally runs away to the right rear, so it would be very difficult to get close.

[Anthony_Nysse]

If memory serves me right, #10 green comes in around 13,000 square feet. I can remember alot of work being done to the left side surrounding area. In fact, I almost lost my leg in a roto tiller! The work that was done to the the right surrounds is amazing. NO one would every know that that was a road for 60,000lb machines!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks, Anthony.  I am glad to have it confirmed that my liquid Alzheimer's has not kicked in completely yet!

The green is in fact in excess of 10,000 SF, and yes, the green does fall away to the right rear.  Dramatically so, in fact.

Great golf hole.  This reconfirms my long held theory that the more you remember about a course or hole, the better it is.

I'm playing Bandon Trails for the first time in three weeks, and can only hope the course there is close to the equal of Friars Head.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

T.E. Paul

Thanks for the comment.

I agree you with you that the connoiseur golfer would support the view that "penal is penal" and "serve the player right" for hitting it there – until it’s your own ball – read Greg Norman at Carnoustie.

However I am definitly a fan of « the natural long grass look ». If the grass can be maintained so that the ball is findable and playable and doesn’t look messy when it’s trampled on, I’m all for keeping it. Maybe the greenkeeper after hand raking the bunkers can do a bit of trimming with his nail scissors if just « leaving it » doesn’t work.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tony & Bill,
The green is closer to 18,000 Square Feet and slopes front to middle and back to middle with a pronounced left to right slope and a back tier. From the back tee it is 178 front edge and 241 to the back edge.

[TEPaul]

FYI, the 10th green is app a full 60+ yards from front to back. I stepped it off one time. For those who can't much relate to that huge dimension on a putting green it's really long---the only other ones I can think of that're longer are the biarritzes of The Creek and Fox Chapel which are app 80 yards of putting green in length. Oh, I forgot the 10th at London Hunt, a par 5 green that may be even longer than 80 yards that is set on a really good diagonal.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm playing Bandon Trails for the first time in three weeks, and can only hope the course there is close to the equal of Friars Head.

Ace:

The 2nd hole at Bandon Trails reminds me of the 10th at FH.  The green isn't quite as big and the tee shot is more downhill but when I first stepped to the tee I thought about the 10th at Friars Head.

The photo link that Tony supplied is a great picture, taken from behind the green looking back toward the tee.  It shows the imense size of the green.  Long Island sound is behind your back as you tee off and a little breeze can help your tee shot.  I believe I have used 8iron to 3 iron on this hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Roths,

How can you not like the non-dune holes.

They're sensational.

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