[Tom_Doak]

Kye Goalby and I played a match over this clifftop course on Saturday of this past week.  It's way better than I remembered from 24 years ago.  The layout of holes uses Bass Rock and the North Berwick Law as focal points, and uses the sidehill contours in a variety of ways so it's not as back-and-forth as the routing looks on paper.

When you combine it with the West Links, I don't think there is any town in the world that can offer much more in terms of beautiful, fun golf.

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:  I disagree.  That's the way I remembered it originally, but the first hole up the hill is fun, and the stretch of 3-4-5 was VERY good.  Really the only two holes I didn't like were on the far end toward Tantallon, 7 and 8, where you can't see where you are going very well.  

I don't know how you are trying to define "weak" -- I'll admit that it wasn't that difficult -- but the holes were certainly interesting and provided an excellent medium for our match.

I'll second your comments on price as well -- the twilight rate at The Glen was 22 pounds.  I was a bit shocked at the price of other UK courses, Royal Dornoch for 85 pounds is certainly worth it, but at current exchange rates, 30-40 pounds for courses like Brora and Tain seems very high.  Guess that's more of a sign of the strength of the U.S. economy, though.  Maybe I'll insist on getting paid in pounds next job!

[Darren_Kilfara]

I have to say that for the first time in three years, I chose not to enter the annual North Berwick 36-hole open competition (which I believe was held yesterday) because it meant playing 18 holes at the Glen. When you consider that the event costs only £25 to enter and gives you a round on the West Links as well as the Glen, that accurately sums up my feelings toward the Glen! I was a five-day member there during the winter a few years ago, and I confess to being thoroughly sick of the course...yes, there are a few nice holes (#3, #9, #12 and #14 stick in my mind as being particularly enjoyable, and #13 is nice if you discount the blindness of the tee shot), but it's really a terrible slog to walk, and there are some downright awful holes. All of the holes with new greensites - #6, #8 and #11 - are bad to begin with and made worse by the new push-up greens which don't fit in with the rest of the course (#6 is particularly egregious, as in any kind of wind there's virtually no fairway to aim at *and* the multi-tiered green is beyond the pale, but the in-course OB at #8 runs it a close second), and there are too many bland holes like #2, #7, #10 and #17 across sideslopes.

Tom, if you're still over here, I'd love to have you down at Dunbar - give me a phone (01368 863268) if you're free. (Funnily enough, I just looked at the Confidential Guide the other night to check out your rating of Dunbar, and at a "3" I think it's at least one point and possibly two too low!)

Cheers,
Darren

[ForkaB]

Darren

Glad you chimed in, because I thought I was hallicunating about my rounds there when I read Tom singing the praises of the Glen.  Dunbar is a far better course, as is Gullane #2 and even Gullane #3 (if you really like your courses short but interesting!).  I will grant that the Glen has a better clubhouse (reall solid funky old-fashioned howf and a howf Scottish) than the West Links, but that's about it.

And Tom.  30-40 quid for Brora too much to pay?  That's $55-75/round (and well under $100 for the day) for a course that could easily hold its own if plunked down in Bandon next to the big boys there.

[Tom_Doak]

Darren:  I'm back in the USA as of last night.  Didn't know where you were living or I would have rung you up.  If you want a game with some of my associates, send me a message and I'll get their phone numbers for you.  And maybe we'll get a game when I'm back in August ... I'd like to see Dunbar again, although John Huggan was telling me they've been trying to make it more narrow and difficult at the expense of fun.

I was as underwhelmed by the new greens at The Glen as you were.  The contouring of the par-5 6th was really funky.

Rich:  I think Brora is great, but if it were $70 here in northern Michigan for that level of maintenance (and sheep dung), I don't think it would be packed.  And I didn't bring up Gullane 2 or 3, both of which I played a couple of years ago and both of which I thoroughly enjoyed ... their ratings will all go up if The Confidential Guide is ever reprinted.

Maybe the real problem is that I'm just more appreciative of "holiday golf" than the two of you.  The golf holes of other courses might be technically better, but how could you not enjoy just being out on The Glen?

[Joel_Stewart]

Here is a picture from the web site.

[ForkaB]

Tom

I love holiday golf.  The course I play most is effectively a holiday golf course, as are virtually all courses in Scotland, including Dornoch, Brora and the West Links at North Berwick.  I just don't think that the Glen is anything close to one of the best, or even above average, even in it's own neighbourhood.  Maybe that just says something about the tremendous quality and fun quotient of the average Scottish village golf course.

Of course, Scotland must be a real letdown for someone from Northern Michigan where so much quality oozes out the ground that a Brora would be treated with disdain by the local punters.  One of these days I'm going to have to make a golfing pilgrimage to that place.......

Joel

That hole is a nice one, but nothing really special, unless you've never seen a drop shot par-3 before.  It might crack the top-500 holes in village courses in Scotland list.......

[Bill_McBride]

When I was planning my first Scotland trip, in May 2004 right before the run down to Painswick, Tiger Bernhardt recommended against the Glen for our last round in East Lothian before our 1:30 pm flight out of Edinburgh.

He was right, but there were still some good holes up there.  It's a funny layout, #1 plays up to the top of a steep hill and #18   off that same steep hilltop for a very short par 4 with OB a distinct reality - behind the green!  All the rest of the holes are up top, with one quick visit down to the beach on the drop shot par 3, then a blind tee shot over the bluff and back on top at #13-14.  Too many holes were pedestrian, but every time you got back to the cliffside it got interesting again.  #17, a mid length par 4 with the cliff ever closer as you approach the green, and a wire fence keeping errant slices in play, was fun.  Launching the tee shot into thin air at #18 was very fun; my brother managed to bounce his tee shot off the clubhouse wall and back in bounds.  His subsequent chip and putt birdie saved a half in our match.

I'm glad we played it although Kilspindie might have been a better choice, or one of the Gullanes.  Best would have been the West Links again   but it's hard to get on there in the morning.

It's funny how some cracking and fun match play can move a course up a few Doak points!    Even by Doak!

[Tom_Doak]

Joel:  I would have to agree with Rich that the par-3 13th is not as great a hole as it looks in the picture (which is taken from the 14th fairway!).  From the tee it is semi-blind, 140 yards downhill, and you are only in trouble if you miss right or long.  I missed a 15-footer for birdie and lost the hole to Kye.

The par-3 ninth is a much stronger 200-yard drop shot toward Bass Rock.  And at the suggestion of someone from town, Kye and I both hit shots toward a grassy rock out in the water from the 15th tee ... and we both underclubbed it by about 40 yards!

[James Bennett]

Darren

Glad you chimed in, because I thought I was hallicunating about my rounds there when I read Tom singing the praises of the Glen.  Dunbar is a far better course, as is Gullane #2 and even Gullane #3 (if you really like your courses short but interesting!).  I will grant that the Glen has a better clubhouse (reall solid funky old-fashioned howf and a howf Scottish) than the West Links, but that's about it.

Rich

when I was there in May, we drove up to the point and viewed the East Links and the Rock, plus the view back to the town.  The bird spotters were out looking at the thousands of birds covering that rock.

The Glen's Clubhouse - looked like major renovations and alterations were going on there.  I couldn't see what used to be, and don't know what will be.  I hope it is a worthwhile improvement. (I was impressed by the glorious simplicity and standard of North Berwick West's clubhouse, and the intriguing setting of the pro-shop/starters area buried into the ground by the first tee).

James B

[Tom_Doak]

James:
 
Those birds out on Bass Rock are gannets, the same shore bird which nests on the point at Cape Kidnappers.  When we were playing the other night there was a virtual "halo" of birds over the rock.

[Lou_Duran]

Tom Doak,

It seems that N. Berwick's redan, the original I am told, is wilder, more severe and larger than those it has inspired.  My only time there I left a 25' birdie putt to a front right pin position a tad short.  Setting the pin way to the left makes the hole much more difficult.  Is there a reason why other redan-like holes such as your 17th at Pacific Dunes are toned down somewhat?  Is the original too over-the-top?   BTW, I've been around PD six or seven times and have yet to make better than bogie on 17, so I am not complaining.  

[Tom_Doak]

Lou:  

The 17th at Pacific Dunes is "tempered" because it usually plays into a 25-mph wind a bit from left to right, whereas the prevailing wind on the original at N. Berwick is downwind.

I was surprised (yet again) how soft the original hole is at the back left.  There is no semblance of a ridge there , it's relatively flat, and of course the shot to the flag is uphill.  If everyone had the sense to overclub there, the hole wouldn't be so famous.

Of course, last week I topped my tee shot into the cross-bunkers and made 5!

[Lou_Duran]

Tom,

At NB, Isn't there a big swale in the green left of center running at a slight angle with the direction of the hole (from the tee)?  I played the hole in the evening after a rather stormy day with the sun poking through the scattering clouds.  In that lighting, the green had an almost surreal appearance.  BTW, much to my surprise, my son loved the course.  It was our first introduction to golf in Scotland and it did not disappoint.

[ForkaB]

Yes, I know if you are a "twitcher" (Birdspotter--see references to "Trainspotters" and "GCA trainspotters" on some of Brian Phillips recent threads) Bass Rock can be hog heaven.  My wife and two sprogs took the boat out there a few years ago when I was in the States on business and loved it.  But.......

.....to we GCA trainspotters, isn't it just pure "eye candy?"  How many of us would talk about Ailsa Craig when discussing Turnberry?  Nobody who was a self-respecting architecture geek!  Why do some talk about Bass Rock in the context of the Glen?  Well, maybe that is because the course just ain't that good.  Fun for a day out, maybe, but not for any sort of lesson vis a vis GCA, at least in a positive sense.....

[Philip Gawith]

Tom - I was also pretty amazed at your comment re the cost of golf at Brora. I would be a happy man if I could get such pleasure from other courses for a mere £30-40 a throw.

As for Lou's comment re less severe redans - and somewhat OT - what about the 16th at St Andrew's Beach? That felt pretty severe to me - indeed nearly impossible with a strong left-to-right wind howling over your shoulder.

[Darren_Kilfara]

The funny part about this thread concerns the new clubhouse which is being built at the Glen - its construction is driving up membership prices, and I expect there will likely be a corresponding hike in visitor greens fees as well. So even the value-for-money aspect of the course is likely to diminish shortly!

By the way, don't take a boat trip out to Bass Rock unless you have a healthy tolerance for the smell of guano. The white covering you can see atop the Rock from a distance is literally birds and bird poop...I took a trip out there last summer, and between the overpowering smell of the guano, a sniff of petrol from the boat motor and a healthy swell from the waves, I've not felt so nauseous in quite some time.

Cheers,
Darren

[ForkaB]

Darren

Another good point. My latest memories of the Glen Clubhouse were 5-10 years ago, when it was classic village course retro-shabby.  If they are trying to go posh, well Tom Doak should thank his lucky stars that he played there when a man was a man for aw that.  The last thing I'm going to do is play that course again just because they have Cloudy Bay Sauvignon Blanc in the Sun Lounge...........

[Kevin Pallier]

I only walked the Glen and it seemed "quirky" with some great views over the town and the Firth of Forth. It obviously isn't in the same class (as others have said) as Dunbar or those at Gullane but IMO - it doesn't try to be.

The Glen continues the theme of it's neigbour - the West Links - fun golf and what's wrong with that ?

[Darren_Kilfara]

Kevin - my problem with the Glen is that it simply isn't fun! The 6th hole is absolutely unplayable; the 1st and 10th holes are virtually unwalkable; and only the clifftop views and a few good holes scattered around (I'll agree that the approach to the 5th is rather enjoyable and add that to my previous list of the 3rd, 9th, 12th and 14th) add snippets of fun in what is otherwise quite a hard, mundane slog.

I should echo others as well in saying that the 13th looks a lot better than it plays; not only does the blindness of the shot create all sorts of logistical difficulties, but the green is quite canted from back left to front right at a ridiculous angle (you have to have a dead straight uphill putt to feel like you have any realistic chance of making any putt longer than three feet). Plus, there's a steep bank short and left of the green which can turn a bad shot into a brilliant one, and a nearly good shot into an awful one.

Sorry - maybe I should be quiet now. Nothing wrong with letting others enjoy a golf course, even if it's not your own cup of tea...

Cheers,
Darren

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