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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2006, 01:26:33 PM »
Jim Thompson:

Nicklaus says to eliminate the 6700 yard tees and just go from 7200 to 6200 ... but I haven't actually seen him do it, and he didn't at Sebonack.

I do think that five tees is too many for a host of reasons.  But the problem is cultural.  Americans insist on getting what they want when they pay for it, and they want stupid stuff.  After ten days in Scotland it is all pretty clear in my head again.

Brent Hutto

Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2006, 01:29:23 PM »
...it depends on whether it is a Friendly Match or a Serious Event.

Can we assume that your "Friendly Match" is contested at match play while the "Serious Event" is medal?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2006, 01:44:35 PM »
Jim Thompson:

Nicklaus says to eliminate the 6700 yard tees and just go from 7200 to 6200 ... but I haven't actually seen him do it, and he didn't at Sebonack.

I do think that five tees is too many for a host of reasons.  But the problem is cultural.  Americans insist on getting what they want when they pay for it, and they want stupid stuff.  After ten days in Scotland it is all pretty clear in my head again.

Tom,

Jack's two newest courses in this area (mid-Atlantic, one private and one public, both opened in the past twelve months, have the following tees:

Private:
7303
6601
6254
5259

Public
7545
6835
6418
5615
5168

As both are close to the ocean, as well as at sea level, I imagine each is a "bear" from the back.

TaylorA

Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2006, 01:50:34 PM »
I doubt that most developers would want to give up the kind of yardage we're talking about here given the percent of golf courses built within housing developments. Golf lots go for big money and a 7200 yard golf course obviously has many more golf lots than a 6200 yard golf course.

Of course the yardage being given up isn't really prime real estate on the golf course, but giving up the 1000 yards translates to about 60-80 golf lots. I don't think many developers would be keen to do that.

Matt_Ward

Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2006, 02:00:02 PM »
Tom:

Don't get in a snit partner. Shorter players are wont to do that when called on the carpet by those who hit the ball longer. ;D

The costs of the game are many fold and I don't doubt increased real estate needs are a part of that but the idea that shorter courses are the way to go for all players is a bit much. It depends upon the particular design and I do agree with Tom Paul (did I actually say that !!!) in terms of the meaning of elasticity and how the really great courses usually bring this element to bear.

Keep in mind Tom many shorter courses do force the better / longer player to make more adjustments and often take the driver out of your hand for a whole host of reasons -- there's both a good and less than good reasons I can see for this -- especially the forced lay-up elements that are being brought to the forefront. I've played a fair representation of "short" courses in the UK and they are clearly fun to play for the bulk of players and are far more likely to be more intricate in terms of their design stature than what you see for the typical American layout.




Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2006, 02:00:21 PM »
Most defintely....
Let's see...
"never seen a birdie made from the tee"
"I will defend par at the green"
And many more quotes regarding the subject.
Anytime a golfer has to make a choice of driver or another club the hole becomes more difficult....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2006, 02:29:10 PM »
Matt:  I wasn't getting in a snit, old chap.  I freely admit that I'm one of the other 99% when it comes to length off the tee, and it doesn't bother me a bit.  But I was asking you a serious question.  I'll ask it again:

Is it a good use of funds to build back tees on most courses, for the 1% of golfers whom you agreed with Voytek are really capable of hitting the ball far enough to need them?  Or would we be better off ignoring that element and keeping the green fees down for everyone else?

I agree with you that generally, British courses have far more interest at the shorter length than American courses.  But I think it's a function of the design assumptions.  Too many American designers start with the 7000 yards and then think they can't make it intricate because it's already so long.  They've got it backwards if you ask me.

JohnV

Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2006, 02:34:12 PM »

Nicklaus says to eliminate the 6700 yard tees and just go from 7200 to 6200 ... but I haven't actually seen him do it, and he didn't at Sebonack.

It seems that the problem with that is that to many guys with egos would say, "6200 is too short, so I guess I'll play the 7200 yard tees" and be overwhelmed.

Build tee boxes at 6200 and 7200 and then come up with a combined set that you put on the scorecard that comes out to around 6700 and I'd think you would be on to something.  No need for lots of tee boxes, just different arrangements.

For our West Penn Open, we are on a course that has 7100 (black) and 6700 (blue) yard tees.  We're talking about alternating holes Black/Blue one day and Blue/Black the second and we'll have about 6900 both days.

As for the original posting, I agree that shorter is better in many cases.  Especially where doglegs or hazards might force the player to think instead of just pulling driver to get it out there for a chance to reach the green.

Matt_Ward

Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2006, 02:47:38 PM »
Tom D:

We do agree -- for the most part.

American developers are wont to believe that a "7,000-yard Championship Course" is the only way to go -- anything less than that silly benchmark figure is often derided as "wussie golf." Clearly the PR and mktg people lead that charge for the selling of lots / general public exposure.

Part of the problem is also the perception of many golfers here in the States.

Let's also not forget that architects who are in need of work do little to convince developers otherwise and then you get a generic layout that has all the interest of your typical fast food meal.

Tom, to answer you question -- I don't know what "far enough" is when people talk about distance. It is relative. If you are asking me can most male golfers carry a driver consistently 200 yards in the air and I would say likely no. But here's the thing -- many of these same golfers INSIST upon playing the back tees. This is inane. These idiots have a major outbreak of "blue-tee-itis" and don't want to admit otherwise when it concerns their lack of distance.

In regards to your specific question -- I don't want to see a knee-jerk reaction become the ultimate solutoin. I don't see the need for adding extra costs (re: real estate additions) but if it's possible to build extensions to existing tees within the actual footprint of the existing layout I see no reason why it cannot be done from an "elasticity" argument that Paul made previously.

What can often happen is that your solution, if carried out to the max, would be akin to throwing the baby out with the bath oil. I do see a need for creative design on the American golf front because what you see with any number of UK & Ireland layouts is a respect for the fun element of golf. Part of that is also assisted by the close connection that Mother Nature has when you play there (wind, topography, etc, etc).

Candidly, I don't see the fee issue dropping any substanial amount if for some strange reason all the courses in America adopted what you advocate. The fee structure is based on a number of variables and whether a courser is 6,600 yards or just over 7,000 yards is not going to be that big of a deal. Might one save $5 or $10 on green fees -- yes -- it's possible. It's also possible the developer would simply pocket the difference anyway with no net gain to the player.

I do believe -- that the push should be for more creative designs that advocate the fullest spectrum of shotmaking -- with power a part of that but not the main item to the point of craziness. On that score it will take a far reaching educational emphasis for those building and designing golf courses today.

However, I don't want to see power diminshed from its rightful placement of emphasis simply because the weak hitters don't have that capacity in their own games.


Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2006, 03:05:35 PM »
I've spoken to a number of golfers in my age group (45-50) recently who are giving up championship competition becase of 7000+ yd. set ups. Maybe it's just a concession to age, but they are tired of getting beaten up by yardage (even with super duper graphite/titanium/high COR rocket launching drivers that they hit farther than they've ever hit anything and super duper golf balls that fly the even the most distant obsticals despite almost no backswing and sore shoulders and bad knees and etc. etc.)

However, I have found that if there is a good mix of hole lengths, and if a lot of yardage is eaten up by one or two 575+ yd par fives and a couple of long fours and a 230 yd three, sprinkled among short to medium fours and a couple of risk reward fives and a good short one shotter, the course can be pleasant and challenging and the scorecard yardage isn't intimidating.

A good design is interesting and fun to play almost regardless of length. I say almost because courses like the International in MA and Pergatory in IN, at 8,000 yds with several 300 yd carries are rediculous and are rarely if ever played at full length. Maybe they aren't good designs from the back backs.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2006, 03:18:05 PM »
Amen!!

I had been playing the Ritz from a combo set of tees at 6850 yards, and my group decided to move back to 7250. I said, fine but I am moving forward to the 6600 set.

I can only tell you how much more enjoyable the game is as now I am playing from the correct set of tees.

I no longer have to squeeze the last ounce of of my drives on certain holes to get over the water on the tee ball and I can play within myself.

The other guys are now hitting it all over the place.

When I was in NE the last couple of weeks, with the wet conditions, I played most of the courses between 6350 and 6500 and it was a pleasure.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2006, 03:19:08 PM »
But the problem is cultural.  

This really is the crux of the issue here Tom; you weren't given a coice of which tees to play. You were told to play yellow markers (middle tees) and they would not take no for an answer. Just think, one of the top 3 architects in the game is told he and his friends will have plenty of fun at 6200 yards! The answer could very well be to only use back tees for special occasions; limiting all casual play to the shorter markers. It might cause some longer hitters to walk away, but business would likely increase when the pace of play allowed people to get home earlier, or head to the 19th hole an hour ahead of time.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2006, 03:48:04 PM »
Just a question, I find the courses I have played in the States tend to play shorter than the total yardage would suggest but over here they play longer than the yardage.

One example is County Sligo (Rosses Point) is about 6700 yards but seems to have a lot of long shots. I played a bit this year at the Fox Club in Stuart, Fl, which is about 7100 yards but seemed to have the same length of shots.
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2006, 03:58:03 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on Today at 01:26:33pm
But the problem is cultural.  
 
Exactly! In the UK golf is learned as a GAME... on the course. In the US we learn golf from the driving range with striking the ball long and far the goal. In the US golf is not primarily a game, it is an athletic endeavor. That is why we have so many "range jockies" that can pound the ball 300 yards, but take 5+ hours to get round the course.

I've mentioned this before... tell someone from Scotland that you played golf today and they will ask, "Did you enjoy your game?" Tell an American that you played golf and they will ask, "what did you shoot?" That sums up the entire problem.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2006, 04:03:22 PM »
Just a question, I find the courses I have played in the States tend to play shorter than the total yardage would suggest but over here they play longer than the yardage.

One example is County Sligo (Rosses Point) is about 6700 yards but seems to have a lot of long shots. I played a bit this year at the Fox Club in Stuart, Fl, which is about 7100 yards but seemed to have the same length of shots.

Padraig - I have found exactly the opposite! Most American courses are so soft that the ball hardly rolls after a teeshot. The courses I have played in the UK and Ireland have almost always been firm and fast allowing teeshots to run down the fairway. As a result, a 450 yard par-four in the US usually plays much longer for me than a hole of the same length over there.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2006, 04:08:30 PM »
It seems to come down to availability.  Does the hole offer an option for a tee box on the same line of flight making the hole play longer for the big hitter ?

This has become an interesting question when we study some of the elasticity seemingly offered by William Flynn routings.  Recalling his concern for the Haskell ball, and saying there will be a need for 8000 yd courses, he seemed to have this in mind on some of his course layouts.

Walking and playing Kittansett yesterday I took note of the Green course yardages, which are perfect for a 77 year old, who used to be a pretty long hitter, but now needs that 200 yard carry to clear some of the marshlands.  The Rating/Slope is 70.3/129.  Yardage 5794.  The White course, which I would say is a bit longer than the Whtes we used to play has a distance of 6395 and rates 71.9/124.  The new back tees on the Blue course offer 6811 yards, with still additional yardage available with the 1922 Hood/Flynn layout.  The Rating/Slope for the Blue is 73.9/140.  Believe me it was great fun to play Kittansett again !

Tom, do you believe Flynn felt he had to leave these elastic options available to his routings ?

Brent Hutto

Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2006, 04:09:50 PM »
I second Mike's comment. On my England trip I ended up playing most of my rounds teeing off with a 3-wood since there was penal rough awaiting seriously offline shots and I was not always sure of the correct aiming line on unfamiliar courses with semi-blind tee shots.

I found that for a given length Par 4 those 3-wood tee shots almost always left me with a shorter approach yardage than I would have had back home playing the same nominal length Par 4. Then factor in the 5-iron that could land a few yards short of the putting surface and scuttle all the way to the back of the green whereas on a typical USA course I'd need a 4-hybrid that could carry almost all the way to the hole.

I found this to be somewhat true at Walton Heath, definitely true at Littlestone and Deal and not quite as noticable at the more parkland-ish Huntercombe. And that's not even talking about the downland Walmer and Kingsdown in a 25-30mph breeze where long approach shots could be as much as 50% roll (most fun I've had in a long time I must say).

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2006, 04:14:54 PM »
I thought Nicklaus said to design the course with strategies from 6700 hundred yards and put in a set of 7200+ yard tees as an afterthought if possible.  I'd agree with that and give him the benefit of that quote which I recall.

Tom - I don't think shorter is better but it certainly makes a hell of a lot of sense and especially if the above scenario is applied.

Courses like Wannamoissett, Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, Pacific Dunes and probably a slew of others I can't recall off the top of my head will give any player all he/she needs.

I also think variety in modern designs is a key.  All too often the yardages are homogenized so that at 6500 yards no par four will be longer then 425 yards and no par 3 longer then 195 or so.  This is bunk in my opinion.  I love that an old gouy like Dev Emmett ALWAYS had a 450-460 yard par 4 (or two) and a 225 yard plus par three (or two) mixed in within a 6300-6400 yard course. Of course you can then put in the really sporty 120 yarder and the 300 yarder with crazy half par options.  Half par holes and a good number of them can combat length.

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2006, 04:20:09 PM »
Another question, there are times when I can't reach par 4's in two over here, one example being the 11th at Rosses Point which is only 400 yards but into the prevailing wind (it was blowing that day). But I have never come across this in the States.
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2006, 04:21:09 PM »
In the UK golf is learned as a GAME... on the course. In the US we learn golf from the driving range with striking the ball long and far the goal. In the US golf is not primarily a game, it is an athletic endeavor. That is why we have so many "range jockies" that can pound the ball 300 yards, but take 5+ hours to get round the course.

I've mentioned this before... tell someone from Scotland that you played golf today and they will ask, "Did you enjoy your game?" Tell an American that you played golf and they will ask, "what did you shoot?" That sums up the entire problem.

Mike, great post.  This is why I've decided to give up the range and, if time does not permit a full round, play 9 holes instead.  This is also what I plan to do with my young daughter--start her out by having her play the game on a children's course, rather than beating balls on a range.  

Mark Arata

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2006, 04:21:53 PM »
Is shorter better? You tell me...

Prairie Dunes, according to their virtual course tour, is 6600 from the blue tees, Cypress Point is 6600 or so, Newport CC is 6700 or so.......Pacific Dunes is 6633 according to the scorecard......Lawsonia 6722, Pasatiempo 6432....

I would say these courses would make the answer a yes, wouldnt you?
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2006, 05:16:37 PM »
Tom Doak,

Would you say that the hazards on the shorter courses tend to be more severe ?

rgkeller

Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2006, 05:20:09 PM »
Shorter is better only if one wants more people to enjoy playing golf.

Since the aim of many is to preserve the exclusive nature of the pursuit, one doubts that short courses will catch on amongst the cognescenti.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 05:23:29 PM by rgkeller »

Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2006, 05:44:56 PM »

rg..

It looks to me as though you have a decent sampling of the "congnescenti" right here in support of shorter courses.

Maybe it depends on how one defines congnescenti, but I'm a 5-6 handicap (which would put me in which percentile??) and I notice a sizable diminution in my enjoyment of a round when I submit to playing back tees at 7000 yds+.

I'm not being combative, but I'm wondering of which "cognescenti" you speak.

THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is shorter, better?
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2006, 06:05:50 PM »
Tim - Great move with your daughter. What percentage of golfers wind up competing in stroke play events in this country? Very small. Yet many would like to you to think that golf was invented for them and that we all should be embarrassed if we can't play at their level. Note the comment Gary made on this thread about "swallowing his pride" and moving up a tee. Why do we feel it is shameful or weak to play from a length that is more suited to our average games? It is the American curse... bigger, stronger, faster, longer is always better. We chase most young people (and adults for that matter) away from golf by only encouraging and recognizing the gifted and talented strikers of the ball. Why does EVERY course have to be a "championship" test? Screw the championship test... give me something fun to play that holds my interest every time I play it.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)