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Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« on: June 30, 2006, 12:09:30 PM »


Found this several pages deep, regarding playing Tom Fazio courses:
I'll be surprised if you don't enjoy playing your first Fazio.

By the time you've played enough to see the same hole at Alaqua Lakes, PGA Reserve, and Bonita Bay you'll begin to see how little thought can go into their work.


This seems to be a common complaint here about TFaz, but try as I might, I can not understand it for several reasons.

1. For many years now (as my waistline clearly attests), I have enjoyed chocolate ice cream.  It's not like I am surprised or amazed or impressed by the innovative ways the ice cream tastes--generally it is pretty similar.  But I like the taste and do not fault Haagen Daz or Baskin Robbins or anyone else.

2. Members at AGNC or other good courses seem not tire of their course.  They apparently stay members and play there for many years. And yet, do they not see the same holes time after time year after year? And I would assume that in spite of seeing the exact same holes time after time, year after year, the members still like playing there.  Surely #6 at ANGC is more like #6 at ANGC than is a Fazio hole at PGA Reserve vs a similar one at Bonita Bay.

What am I missing?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

John Kavanaugh

Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2006, 12:16:43 PM »
Golf was not a game founded for Willy Loman...
 

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2006, 12:21:03 PM »


1. For many years now (as my waistline clearly attests), I have enjoyed chocolate ice cream.  It's not like I am surprised or amazed or impressed by the innovative ways the ice cream tastes--generally it is pretty similar.  But I like the taste and do not fault Haagen Daz or Baskin Robbins or anyone else.

What am I missing?

I am watching Germany Vs. Argentina over my second bowl of Cherry Garcia - and a couple of Carlsbergs.

After being introduced to Ben & Jerrys amazing ice cream there is no turning back.

I would rather eat one of their flavors for the rest of my life than having a free choice between the 10+ of local ice cream brands that we have here in Sweden.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2006, 01:10:57 PM »
Andy, I can't explain your first point, as I, too, enjoy chocolate ice cream, from just about anywhere.

As for the second, I think there is a bit of a difference in seeing the same hole on the same course you play frequently, and seeing the same on appearing on different courses. I can't say that this has been my experience at all with Fazio, at least not in the 4 courses I've played, unless one is going to be so generic as to call all dogleg left par 4s the same. There was plenty of variety in the 4 I've played.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2006, 01:27:18 PM »
Most of us could identify courses we'd be happy to play daily for the rest of our lives.  I could eat cheeseburgers every day.  So repetition with Fazio really shouldn't be an issue.  How about Raynor?  What's the difference?

Unless one is trying to determine Fazio's legacy, which is an intellectual exercise, and a good one at that.

Having seen less than a handful of Fazio's projects, they seem rather mechanized.  Is "suburban" too harsh?  Souless?

I haven't felt compelled to make return visits, so I can't really comment on playability, except to say that none did much in the way of making an impression.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2006, 06:45:03 PM by Gary Daughters »
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2006, 04:46:25 PM »
Quote
Golf was not a game founded for Willy Loman...

Au contraire John, that's exactly how it was founded  ;)
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

John Kavanaugh

Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2006, 05:08:08 PM »
Andy,

I found this little ditty about Willy Loman and took the liberty of changing it a bit to reflect the golf course critic.

The Golf Critic

The golf critic is an elderly writer lost in false hopes and illusions. The magazine he works for no longer pays him salary. Working on straight commission, the critic cannot bring home enough money to pay his greenfees. After thirty-four years with the with no game, they have spent his energy and discarded him.

The golf critic's sons, Biff and Hap, are also failures, but he doesn't want to believe this. He wants his sons, especially Biff, to be an architect. He believes his boys are great and cannot understand why they are not successful. This is a major source of conflict throughout the play.

As the critic has grown older, he has trouble distinguishing between the past and present - between illusion and reality - and is often lost in flashbacks where much of the story is told. These flashbacks are generally after 1960 when he believes golf course architecture took a wrong turn.

The critic has had an affair with a woman he meets while doing field work and is caught by Biff. Now, Biff does not respect the critic and they do not get along. The critic eventually commits suicide so that Biff can have the insurance money to become an architect.  
« Last Edit: June 30, 2006, 05:19:28 PM by John Kavanaugh »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2006, 05:32:43 PM »
John, you are one jaded man.

Just out of curiosity, you've played with a number of GCAers - do any fit your bleak description? None that I know.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2006, 05:36:29 PM »
J.K.,

Man, that is really weird.  Isn't a bit early for a dark mood?


Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2006, 09:58:44 AM »
Quote
As for the second, I think there is a bit of a difference in seeing the same hole on the same course you play frequently, and seeing the same on appearing on different courses. I can't say that this has been my experience at all with Fazio, at least not in the 4 courses I've played, unless one is going to be so generic as to call all dogleg left par 4s the same. There was plenty of variety in the 4 I've played.

So George, I am left where I started. Why does Fazio get such a bad rap for it? And are the similar holes really that similar or are we looking for reasons to criticize Fazio?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2006, 11:55:47 AM »
This is a really great thread. Love the title, the premise and most, the insight.

I too love chocolate ice cream, unfortunately, I can't have it anymore--just for today. (actually, I'm more of a purist, with vanilla being my favorite of flavors, maybe even with a touch of banana, but I still love chocolate, and go bonkers over rocky road)

To get that kind of ice cream, well you really have to spend some time working out a balance to perfection or, you can just manufacturer the ice cream, put it in a swanky-looking carton, and advertise the sugar out of it, thus making people think it's best chocolate ice cream there is when in fact it's just really not all that memorable.

Point in example:

Out here in California we had a chain of drug stores called Thrifty Drug, who for years manufactured there own brand of ice cream at a plant in El Monte. They had this one flavor called, Chocolate Malted Crunch where they take actual malted milk balls, break them up into chunks and mix it into their world class ice cream. One bite, and your mouth is like filled with this rich, and I mean RICH chunky, yet creamy flavor that has you not wishing it to ever melt in your mouth. The flavor is, well quite memorable. It was like delievering manna from heaven in each bite.

They also had a Pistachio ice cream where they mixed very large pieces of cashew in with the completely different tasting type of pistachio ice cream. There isn't even close to most pistachio's, that are nothing more then vanilla, diluted with a green food coloring and added artifical pistachio flavor.

Do I even have to describe Thrifty's Chocolate Fudge Brownie?

But the thing about Thrifty's ice cream was it was this world class ice cream which was for years, at an unbelievable price. It wasn't until the late 80's, that they raised the price from $.15 a scoop to it's price now, which is like $.85 a scoop. It still good, too, although since the Rite Aid takeover, the quality has diminished somewhat.

You see, Thrifty did a great job because they knew how to manufacturer ice cream the old fashion, way with no preservatives and other checmicals and manufactured and artificial flavors, opposite of the way Fazio manufactuers his brand of ice cream, with it's really eye-pleasing carton and 31 different flavors of vanilla.

But what's worse is when he takes a great old staple of Rocky Road, (Augusta) which is like the best, most legendary rock road you can get and then gives it his own twist--making it better--or so he thinks. Well, is it as good as the original? I mean it has all of these artifical flavors and added bonuses, and  really beautiful packaging, but ultimately, it isn't even close to the Thrifty Drug Store brand, which frankly was just so perfect that the only thing needed was to keep the formula the same without altering it for years to come.

What a great, informative thread.



Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2006, 01:26:24 PM »
It's much easier to find what's missing in an analogy than it is to create one that actually works, so I'm not giving myself a lot of credit for this, but...

I think the chocolate ice cream analogy is a bit off. While golf and ice cream are both nice, there's no challenge involved in eating chocolate ice cream. It's not an accomplishment, you don't have to try particularly hard, and nobody says "well done" when you're finished.

Golf, I've heard, can be be quite a challenge.

So that's the difference between golf and chocolate ice cream. And if you asked me yesterday, I'd have thought I would never end a GCA post with that sentence.

~Matt

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2006, 02:05:08 PM »
Matt,
Quite obviosuly you had never made a visit to Farrell's Ice Cream  Parlour and experienced an item on the menu called, The Trough.



The Trough was pure decadence as far as ice cream concoctions go and if your finished one, they would have a sort of chowder and marching society scream about the place with bells and whistles ringing off, and music playing, and a ceremony which they presented you with a blue ribbon, announcing that you had accomplished the impossible, and that you were a pig. They would then have everyone in the Parlour, make snorting pig sounds to validate your accomplishment.

I know one guy that did not one, not two, but three of them in one night. If you don't think that's stepping up to the challenge, well then your not a Sportsman! ;D

Kyle Harris

Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2006, 02:10:48 PM »
Matt,
Quite obviosuly you had never made a visit to Farrell's Ice Cream  Parlour and experienced an item on the menu called, The Trough.




The Trough was pure decadence as far as ice cream concoctions go and if your finished one, they would have a sort of chowder and marching society scream about the place with bells and whistles ringing off, and music playing, and a ceremony which they presented you with a blue ribbon, announcing that you had accomplished the impossible, and that you were a pig. They would then have everyone in the Parlour, make snorting pig sounds to validate your accomplishment.

I know one guy that did not one, not two, but three of them in one night. If you don't think that's stepping up to the challenge, well then your not a Sportsman! ;D

Eh, looks like that middle mound of Vanilla could have been better integrated with the surrounding chocolate features. Frankly, the desire to hide the pistachio and walnuts from view when eating the Strawberry is a trite excuse to mound the vanilla in such a way a detracts from the experience of being able to choose your line of eating through the trough.

I find this sort of containment sundae to be a banal introduction to the world of sundae construction.

Ben & Jenshaw (err... Jerry) are definitely at the height of their field.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 02:11:16 PM by Kyle Harris »

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2006, 01:08:45 AM »
I stand corrected, and hungry.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2006, 01:29:52 AM »
Matt,
Being away from the computer for a larger part of the day, this post bugged-me all day. That's because I 'm having delusions of frozen cream with gobs of whipped cream, chopped nuts, cherries and chocolate sauce dancing in my head.

Someday, someday, but not today and hopefully not tomorrow either!

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2006, 06:56:49 PM »
*sigh*

I guess being mocked by the Emperor means you have finally arrived?  ::)
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2006, 07:18:30 PM »
Mocked?

I don't know about mocking, but I do know a thing or two about ice cream. the thread was a great one. Good going!

Your reward is to go out to Thrifty's/Rite Aid today and go get a double scooper of Double Malted Crunch. (I think you live in California don't you?) Better yet, make it a Triple Scoop and make the last scoop Chocolate Fudge Brownie> But I'll warn you, DMC is a favorite there and it usually sells out, so better get down there quick!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2006, 07:26:13 PM »
Kyle,
Your right though. Fazio probably did do a little time at Farrell's as a soda jerk. You can see it all right there in that Trough. All of the containment and repetiveness in each and every concoction. right down to bring it all to the customer.

What product!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2006, 08:47:13 PM »
Didn't Farrells have a menu item called the zoo as well? Or, was I too young to remember?

Joe
« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 08:47:26 PM by Joe Hancock »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2006, 09:00:50 PM »
Crazy Joe,
Yes, the Zoo was a menu item, which was a huge bucket/1/4 barrell of biggest banana split you could ever lay your eyes on.

The thing was huge and they did the usual chowder & marching society thing along with pinning blue ribbons on each of the people that would partake in it, when a group--usually a birthday party--would order one.

The thing had these little plastic animals that would melt into the dessert and everytime you took a bite, you would ialways hae to remove it from your mouth.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 09:02:07 PM by Tommy Naccarato »

peter_p

Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2006, 01:52:31 AM »
Tommy,
     Thanks for the memories. They still have the Pigs Trough, but its downsized to a double banana split. Many a family birthday was celebrated there. After you finished, would you tee it up again?

 http://www.farrellsusa.com/Images/Farrells/80906_Menu1.pdf

     

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2006, 02:27:47 AM »
Peter,
First trip I ever made to Farrell's was of course the Portland restaurant, right near the Multnomah Stadium. I can picture the place right now!

Soon after, they expanded and built one about a mile form my house, and of course, everyone went there. It became a hangout of sorts for the Jr. High crowd!

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2006, 08:00:08 AM »
One of the joys of visiting Scotland is not only about playing golf on the Ancient Golf Courses but also about capturing that bygone golf culture - reliving the history -  visiting the club houses and seeing those 7-Hole and 13-Hole Layouts on the wall – checking out the Captain’s Board going back to th 1890’s. Or drinking at the old pubs where the golfers used to meet.

Now for you ice cream gourmets.

After playing golf in East Lothian – particuarly if you’ve just played at Musselburgh – head off and join the queue at Luca’s. Even when it’s cold there’s a queue and if it’s sunny and hot prepare for a long wait. They offer 3 classic choices – vanilla, strawberry or chocolate in a cone – the ice cream is soooo goood and it will revive the saddest golfer after the worst round in his life to perk up and start whistling happy little ditties.
The locals are addicted to the stuff. The interesting part the Ice Cream parlour was founded by an Italian in 1908 so the likes of James Braid or Ben Sayers would have almost certainly have had the odd cone or two. So all you GCA’ers the next time you visit East Lothian relive history at Luca’s.

Visit their web site.

http://www.s-luca.co.uk/aboutus/history/history.html

or here’s an article from the Scotsman

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/s2.cfm?id=806572004

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Fazio, chocolate ice cream and ANGC
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2006, 11:13:12 AM »
John:

You WOULD post that just after I have returned from ten days in North Berwick with my 15-year-old son!  :)

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