[Jay Flemma]

Well something might have gotten lost in translation here Rich:)  When you said "finest," at first I didn't equate that with hardest.  I'll have to agree with you, Carnoustie may very well be the hardest finish on the planet.

Us U.S. guys may like what the good doctor said about finishes in Spirit of St Andrews...he said if they allowed fgor the greatest number of swings (i.e. half-holes, that's how I interpret it) then its a great finish.  He cites Cypress as an example - a "par 3.5 par-3" followed by two "par 3.5 par-4s!" (Those are my words, not his!)

I see his thinking and respect it, my only thought is I'd prefer the end to be on the harder side.  I know Doak and Engh and Silva disagree, but I like a good stiff par-4 finisher.  

It's 18.  Best drive of the day, best fairway wood of the day, please.  Two putts is a smashing four.

That being said, I have to admit respect for Carnoustie on that issue.  Look up "serpentine" in the dictionary and there's a picture of barry Burn...very snakelike it sidewinds and strikes.

[ForkaB]

Jay

I still don't equate "finest" with "hardest."  It was other posters who seemed to assume that, which is why I made the clarification.  I happen to think that Carnoustie is one of the finest, if not the finest.  Also, hard, but that's just a coincidence.

Also, as I'm sure you know, I'm one of "us US guys."  1620 and aw that.....

Rich

[wsmorrison]

Rich,

I mentioned Merion, Pine Valley and Carnoustie pretty early on in this thread and think the finishing holes on each outstanding.  However, I don't see how you rate Carnoustie 3-up unless you overweight length.  Come to think of it, Aronimink has a pretty darn good finish as well.

Note:  I've only played Carnoustie twice, so my memory and experience are limited.  I've played Pine Valley about 10 times and Merion East about 35 times.

10:  Merion is a short par 4 (312) so it is difficult to compare to the longer 10 at Carnoustie (466).  For the better players, Merion has the temptation to drive the green with trouble all around the green.  This is a placement hole to the offset green with the right edge of the fairway ideal bringing deep rough or the 4 right side fairway bunkers into play.  

Carnoustie has a narrow landing area for the better players.  There is a stream cutting across the line of play about 30 yards short of the green.  It doesn't really come into play.  The green complex is sort of uninspiring to me.  A push in terms of architecture, not in terms of difficulty.

Pine Valley's 10th might be the shortest hole on the course (169) but with trouble all around and a tricky green (5185 sq ft) it is justifiably a world-famous hole.  Hard to compare to a short and long par 4.

If pressed their might be the slightest of edges to Carnoustie with Merion and Pine Valley equal.  Really a negligible difference among the three.

11:  Merion's famous 11th (370), is the site of the close of the Grand Slam and last appearance by Bob Jones in competition.  It is a blind tee shot away from the line of instinct to the visible green.  The fairway narrows tightly 200 yards off the tee but widens out down the slope to a flat landing area.  The domed green with a deep bunker left and a brook that wraps around 2/3 of the green creates a daunting target and a nervous approach.

Carnoustie is similar in length (385) again with a narrowed landing area for the long hitters.  No more than a 3 or 4 iron off the tee as with Merion.  Two bunkers on either side of the two-tiered green.

Pine Valley (392) is a bit longer with a strategic grove of trees that punishes a long-left tee shot.  This too is a placement hole with the preferred approach angle from the right fairway line near a rough mound.  The green is well guarded and sloped back to front.

All three are short par 4s with a discernalbe edge to Merion followed by Pine Valley and Carnoustie.

12:  Merion (415) is a sharp dogleg right with intimidating bunkers on the hillside on the far side of the turn and a line of trees on the right that catches shots cutting the corner too close.  A very well bunkered offset green with severe back to front and left to right slopes.  There are no easy putts on this green with OB behind the green.

Carnoustie (506) is a short straight away par 5 with bunkers pinching in the landing area from the championship tees.  There are some bunkers flanking the approach 20-35 yards short of the green that can catch long second shot approaches.  The green is shallow and wide with a bisecting ridge.

Pine Valley (344) is an excellent Sahara type hole where once the green was visible from the tee and tempting to hit towards.  Tree removal will help this hole tremendously.  This hole became a template hole for Flynn who likely built this hole with Hugh and Alan Wilson after Crump's death.  Like many Flynn doglegs, this one is best played along the outside with an approach made difficult as the green is on the same level as the fairway making depth perception a challenge.

Merion might have the slightest of edges on Pine Valley ahead of Carnoustie.

13:  Merion's shortest hole (129) has outstanding bunkering with a difficult slope off the deep fronting bunker.  It is the perfect distance for my 52 degree wedge so all I have to do is hit it straight.  There are some difficult pin positions especially at the rear of the green.  The bunkering is awesome looking and as challenging as they are aesthetic.

Carnoustie is also a par 3 (168) with a horshoe shaped bunker 10 yards short of the green.  There are some nice right to left slopes right rear and left to right left middle.  Two small bunkers flank the middle of the green and a small pot in the back left corner.

Pine Valley (448) is an all-world par 4 with great contours in the fairway and 2 high demand shots to reach the green with sandy waste down the left side from the landing area to the green and a tree line and sand pinching in the right side requiring a precisely played tee shot.  The green is large (9910 sq ft) and with some tiers and slopes that make 3-putting very easy.

There is a sizeable edge to Pine Valley with Merion and Carnoustie about equal.

14: Merion (444) is a dogleg left with the ideal carry near Clubhouse Road with long fescue along the left margin through the turn.  Terrific raised bunkers guard the right side.  Only the top of the basket is visible from the fairway with a closely mown slope on the left (there was a great bunker but not in 1930) and bunkering with scottish broom along the toplines to the right and rear of the green.  It is a maginificent green with several tiers, a center channel and an outstanding variety of pin positions.

Carnoustie (516) is a nice par 5 (short like 12) with the Spectacle bunkers into the hillside short of the green.  It is an excellent medium length par 5 with a well-designed two-tier green with a higher level in back as I recall.

Pine Valley is a drop shot par 3 (220? from the new rear tee) with water in front and a beach bunker between the pond and the green.  Sandy waste on the right and rear catch wayward shots.  The green is fairly flat and the bunkers not deep.  

I think Merion's 14th the better of the three followed closely by Carnoustie and then Pine Valley (sorry Govan).

I'll finish this fun exercise of personal opinions after breakfast.

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Wayne

A few tidbits to help you digest your breakfast.

I've only played Merion once, but my incomparable playing partners gave me years of experience there!

My match play was as follows:

10--Merion is a contrived hole, Carnoustie is a great one.  Move the M green back across Ardmore aveneue and maybe--maybe!--it will be a fair fight.

11--No contest.  Merion is a silky little fox of a hole and Carnoustie is just very average.

12--Carnoutise is now a 4 of 480 or so--only the hackers play from the back tee.  World class 2nd between the bunkers to the punchbowl green.  Merion is just OK.

13--great contest between two great short 3's.  It's a half (and, just to get back on topic, Wright designed this hole!)

14--tough call, but Merion is just too straightforward--bomb it down the middle, 7-iron to an open, but tricky green.  Carnoustie is THE Spectacles.  Bomb it down the middle and then try to hit an aerial shot over a hill with cavernous bunkers, all in a part of the course where everybody it watching. Sorry Merion.

15--To give this hole to Merion you have to be a homer.  15 at Carnoustie has everything at Merion 15 does not have.  Need for a precise drive over a reverse cambered fairway.  Long iron semi blind 2nd shot (into the prevailing wind) to a fascinatinggreen.

16 Merion/17 Carnoustie--I've reversed things here just to keep the lengths comparable.  Two of the greatest holes in golf.  At Merion, the challenge off the tee is "hit it long and straight, stupid!"  At Carnoustie, the challenges of the serpentine burn (as jay notes) are infinite.  Meriod may have a slightly better green, but when one-dimensional and multi-dimensional strateieis clash in GCA, the latter always wins.  Sorry, Merion.......

17 Merion/16 Carnoustie.  Two of the greatest long "3's" in golf.  Merion's is a work of art, Carnoustie's is just a brute.  But, I wonder what the latter was like when Wright's bathtub green was there........

18--Both have the history but Carnoustie has the class.  Even forgetting Vandervelde, there is so much variety and subtlety to C18, that Merion has no chance, regardless of what Hogan and Cirba did there in the past.

Hope that your cornflakes are not repeating on you, Wayne....

[wsmorrison]

15: Merion's new back tee (438?) makes this even more of a cape type tee shot where you have to decide how much you want to bite off the dogleg right to leave yourself a shorter shot to the most severely sloped green on the course.  On these sort of offset fairways the far fairway line comes into play and thus the OB of Clubhouse Road.  I think Dean Beaman hit through the fairway OB to lose the 1966 Amateur.

Carnoustie's 15th (464) is a slight dogleg left with OB on the left side.  Two fairway bunkers at 230 and 260 off the tee on the right favor a long drive with a bit of draw.  There are two bunkers clustered 40 yards short and right of the green and two bunkers at the corners of the front of the green.

Pine Valley's long uphill par 5 (591) is better than any par 5 at Carnoustie and with one of the great par 5 greens in golf.

Decided edge to Pine Valley followed by Merion in a tie with Carnoustie.  

16:  While blunted by technology, the 430 yard Quarry Hole at Merion is a classic golf design.  For most pros it now plays as a 3-wood, 8 iron.  A new tee could be built on the far side of the drive into the driving range which adds real yardage and playing yardage by altering the angle to the right slightly.  There's hardly a finer sight in inland golf than the view through the quarry with the Scottish Broom's golden flowers in bloom and the large green with its steep upslope at the front challenging even a lofted approach.

Carnoustie's long par 3 16th (250 yards) is not as scary a shot with a ProV-1x and today's metal woods and hybrids as it once was.  Yet it is still a wonderful hole and where I've rarely been as pleased with a par.

Pine Valley's 16th (447) with its blind tee shot and most natural green in golf is a terrific hole.  The longest carry over the vast sandy waste area facing the tee shot rewards the bold driver with the shortest distance and best angle into the green.  There are some terrific slopes on this green.  Ask Tom Paul someday the details where defeat was snatched from the jaws of victory in an important match.

Merion and Pine Valley have a slight edge over Carnoustie's great par 3.

17: Merion's great penultimate hole has been lengthened to 254 yards plus.  On this downhill par 3 with its tricky and steep false front, steep left hillside and bunkers all around there's a lot that can go wrong and often does.  In my opinion, it is a better par 3 than the 16th at Carnoustie.  Often the site of triumph or tragedy.

Carnoustie's 457 yard 17th is my favorite hole on the golf course.  The burn and bunkering create great angles as does the offset green.

Pine Valley's short par 4 17th at 338 yards shows that a great par 4 doesn't have to be long to create interest and a wide scoring spectrum.  While the hole once had alternate fairways and would be improved if it were to undergo some serious tree removal, it is a great hole as is.

These are three outstanding holes where I give the edge to Carnoustie followed closely and equally by Pine Valley and Merion.

18:  The last hole.  Wow.  There's some great stuff here as well.  Merion's new back tee makes the finishing hole just short of 500 yards with a 250 yard carry required to clear the quarry with its edge some 20 feet or so above the tee.  The wildly undulating fairway and dip before the green gives a perception of the hole being closer than it really is so that it plays longer than it looks.  One of the great greens in golf, the front half slopes back to front and the back half slopes front to back.  This is one tough green to approach with a long iron or middle iron for that matter from forward tees.  One of the best finishing holes in all of golf.

The scene of the Frenchman's collapse.  The 18th today (516) might be better suited as a par 4 from a forward tee.  Like the 17th, the Barry Burn winds its way through this hole.  A collection of 3 bunkers (including Johnny Miller's bunker) guard the right side of the landing area.  Two small bunkers frame the opening to the green.

I guess the new back tee on 18 at Pine Valley must be about 480 or so with 260 yards to clear the sandy waste before the fairway from the elevated tee.  The massive 11,070 sq ft green sits above a stream fronting the green with beautiful Flynn bunkers in the bank.  This too is one of the very best home holes in golf.

I give the slightest nod to Merion and Pine Valley above the finishing hole at Carnoustie.

So I guess in the end, for the back nines, I give Merion and Pine Valley the advantage over Carnoustie.  

[wsmorrison]

Rich,

I concede your far greater familiarity with Carnoustie and so regard your observations and analysis most highly.  I think we are comparing (along with PVGC) some of the very best holes in golf so there is going to be some subjectivity and I guess it comes out a bit on both sides.  Funny how you say that Merion's 10th is contrived today and might be improved if it were across the street.  It was really contrived when it was with the steep berm behind the green protecting the unsuspecting on the first hole.  Maybe they should just wear helmets today    I think 10 at Carnoustie one of the weakest holes on the course and out of place compared to the other holes on this great golf course.  It could be on many an uninspired inland course in the States or overseas.  At least I agreed and didn't think Merion's 15th was better than Carnoustie but rather its equal but behind Pine Valley.

By the way, Rich, no cornflakes for me this morning, Wheatabix, honest!

[JESII]

Rich,

Your comments here help clarify my understanding of your position on the whole amateur status issue as it relates to actually playing golf. If someone is able to spend most of their time doing something regardless of their need for income they are no longer an amateur at that activity, whatever it may be. Yes?


Rich and Wayne,

I would guess it is unavoidable, but there is a tremendous amount of subjectivity in each of your positions in comparing finishes. I have never played Carnoustie, but I am fluent in Merion and Pine Valley..eese, and would have a difficult time deciding a "winner" between the two. The spiritual experience I have when playing links golf would surely go a long way in my own subjective opinion, but to suggest Carnoustie beats Merion 3 down runs the risk of a real credibility question mark. Rich, have you just spent some time at Carnoustie? I know that always has an endearing effect on my opinions of a course. Sort of like having dinner with someone you do not often see, you generally leave thinking what a great guy that was, whether they are or not.

[ForkaB]

Rich,

Your comments here help clarify my understanding of your position on the whole amateur status issue as it relates to actually playing golf. If someone is able to spend most of their time doing something regardless of their need for income they are no longer an amateur at that activity, whatever it may be. Yes?


Rich and Wayne,

I would guess it is unavoidable, but there is a tremendous amount of subjectivity in each of your positions in comparing finishes. I have never played Carnoustie, but I am fluent in Merion and Pine Valley..eese, and would have a difficult time deciding a "winner" between the two. The spiritual experience I have when playing links golf would surely go a long way in my own subjective opinion, but to suggest Carnoustie beats Merion 3 down runs the risk of a real credibility question mark. Rich, have you just spent some time at Carnoustie? I know that always has an endearing effect on my opinions of a course. Sort of like having dinner with someone you do not often see, you generally leave thinking what a great guy that was, whether they are or not.

Jim

I don't fully understand your first paragraph, but I think it does get at a little bit of what I have argued on the other issue--i.e. there is a continuum between amateurs and professionals, not some sort of artificially contrived break.  And yet, there are guys like Wright (and maybe even the "professional" golfer Moe Norman, I could argue) who are true amateurs.

As to your second question, I have played Carnoustie many times from 1978 onwards, as well as walking it twice with the big boys when the Scottish Open was there in the late 90's.  I live only 1:15 away and I'm currently writing a book on the course under the auspices of the Carnoustie Golf Links, so I know the lay of the land fairly well.

Vis a vis the 3 up on Merion, that was the back 9 only.  My guess is that Merion might scrape back a hole or two on the front, although it would be hard slog.....

Rich

[JESII]

Rich,

This amateur->->->->professional continuum you speak of, does it exist in all walks of life? Are there distinctions between those that write for a living and those that write for pleasure? How about fish? Is it simply based on monetary considerations (and there equivalents)?

[ForkaB]

Rich,

This amateur->->->->professional continuum you speak of, does it exist in all walks of life? Are there distinctions between those that write for a living and those that write for pleasure? How about fish? Is it simply based on monetary considerations (and there equivalents)?

Golfing ones ball--yes
Golf Course Architecture--yes
Writing--yes
Strategic Consulting--yes
Fish--ask the Emperor

Money has nothing to do with it.

Cheers

Rich

[Bill_McBride]

Watching the proponents of each course (Carnoustie and Merion or Pine Valley) debate the relative merits of each has got to be a futile pastime.  There is so much in favor of each course that it's a bit like saying, I really do favor Marilyn Monroe over Jane Russell.  Chacun a son gout!

[ForkaB]

Watching the proponents of each course (Carnoustie and Merion or Pine Valley) debate the relative merits of each has got to be a futile pastime.  There is so much in favor of each course that it's a bit like saying, I really do favor Marilyn Monroe over Jane Russell.  Chacun a son gout!

Au contraire, Guillaume

It is EXACTLY through picking nits amongst the finest examples of any "art" that you learn about the difference between great and merely very good.  Would you learn what makes a great autombile by comparing a Ford and a Chevy?

And, it works with women, too. That Jane Russell looked good in pictures, but up close and personal she was just another broad.......

[T_MacWood]

An interesting comparison of the relative merits of Carnoustie, Merion and PV's finish, but I wouldn't consider any of those courses as being designed exclusively by amateurs. Colt assisted Crump, Macdonald & Whigham advised the Merion committee, and Stutt & Braid were designing for the Carnoustie committee. Wright was the chairman of the committee that hired Braid & Stutt. From what I understand those changes made in 1931 had been planned for some time when the committee gave the go ahead.

[wsmorrison]

Tom MacWood,

Looking forward to seeing you next month.  We can debate the contributions of Macdonald and Whigham at Merion.  I think you know which side I will take  

If you wanted to argue that Merion was not exclusively designed by an amateur, I would back you up and with a whole host of documentation pointing to the contributions of that noted professional golf architect, William Flynn.  We know he had a lot to do with the present DESIGN of Merion (holes 1,2,8,10,11,12,13,14) and much of the bunkering.  

We don't know anything at all about the design contribution, if any, by Macdonald and Whigham.  We know H Wilson consulted them prior to his trip to the UK and found their insights and advise very valuable.  We also know they visited the site prior to the commencement of work and found the site suitable.  We don't know anything more than this.  Whigham's eulogy is very suspect....maybe he hired the writer from Tillinghast's advertising firm  

[Sean_A]

Watching the proponents of each course (Carnoustie and Merion or Pine Valley) debate the relative merits of each has got to be a futile pastime.  There is so much in favor of each course that it's a bit like saying, I really do favor Marilyn Monroe over Jane Russell.  Chacun a son gout!

Au contraire, Guillaume

It is EXACTLY through picking nits amongst the finest examples of any "art" that you learn about the difference between great and merely very good.  Would you learn what makes a great autombile by comparing a Ford and a Chevy?

And, it works with women, too. That Jane Russell looked good in pictures, but up close and personal she was just another broad.......

I don't know Rich.  I sort of like seeking greatness through comparing say a '69 289 Ford AC Cobra MKIII to maybe '63 Corvette Stingray Split Window Coupe or a '67 Stingray 427 Coupe.  I reckon there are a few other models that could be compared.  Greatness is everywhere.  Seek and ye shall find.

Ciao

Sean

[JESII]

Rich,

This amateur->->->->professional continuum you speak of, does it exist in all walks of life? Are there distinctions between those that write for a living and those that write for pleasure? How about fish? Is it simply based on monetary considerations (and there equivalents)?

Golfing ones ball--yes
Golf Course Architecture--yes
Writing--yes
Strategic Consulting--yes
Fish--ask the Emperor

Money has nothing to do with it.

Cheers

Rich

Rich,

I guess I did not ask that properly. Would you say there is some sort of "artificially contrived break" in those other endeavors, as you suggest there is in playing golf and building golf courses? Or is each individual just slightly more or less involved than the others and in that continuum, the stone amateur is not much different than the career professional?

[ForkaB]

Jim

No "contrived breaks" that I know of except in the golfing your ball activity.

Tom MacW

All my info says that Carnoustie panicked after Braid and Stutt's finish proved to be so weak in the 1930 Scottish Amateur and did the changes themselves prior to the 1931 Open, with Wright being the key player (he also was the guy who decided to hire Braid in the first place, in 1926).  Maybe they had Stutt do the heavy lifting, but nothing I've seen says that Braid was involved.  If you have any evidence to the contrary, please let me know.  If you do not, or don't wish to share what you have, nae problemo, as it is very peripheral to the work I am doing.

[JESII]

Is that to say the breaks (or distinctions) are more legitimate outside of playing golf?



If so, tell me, why are you less an amateur golfer than Mr Wright is an architect (golf, that is)?

[ForkaB]

What we have here, Jim, is a failure to communicate.

I'm saying there are NO artificial breaks in those other "professions" (except, fish, which I don't know), and why do we have one for golfing ones ball?

What are you saying?

Vis a vis your question, I won about $350 last year in prize money in amateur tournaments, so I'm just a very little bit pregnant on the golfing one's ball continuum, but more pregnant than Mr. Wright was as a GCA.....

[JESII]

I think we're speaking the same language Rich. Tell me, do you think Mr. Wright gained any recognition or notoriety for his time and energy towards creating the finish at Carnoustie? Perhaps a pint or three as minor compensation?

[Bill_McBride]

It appears to me that my candidate (for best finish designed by an amateur), Oakmont CC as designed by Mr. Fownes Sr, wins by default!  

And the point of Marilyn vs Jane (thinking now of "The Outlaw" Jane!) is, who the hell cares, they are both wonderful!    Why split hairs, whether blonde or brunette?

[JESII]

Bill,

I can agree with Mr. Goodale in his statement to the effect...now that they're both here and you can only choose one, why not dissect the qualities of each and ennunciate your preferrence? Maybe not an exact quote Rich, but did I get the sentiment across?

[ForkaB]

I think we're speaking the same language Rich. Tell me, do you think Mr. Wright gained any recognition or notoriety for his time and energy towards creating the finish at Carnoustie? Perhaps a pint or three as minor compensation?

Apparently, Jim, what happens in Carnoustie stays in Carnoustie.  Even Tom MacWood hadn't heard of him!

PS--those pints we keep winning from each other are getting stale.  When are you coming over here?

PPS--per your reply to Bill McB above--agreed!  Ou est les Jane Russels d'antan......

Bill

I think what Oakmont needs is a book in the "Experience" series!

R

[JESII]

Unfortunately, or maybe not, I have not yet won one of those pints. I say not necessarily unfortunate because of course it will get me over there. With my fourth child on the way I guess it'll be a year or two before you see me at your shore.  In this case I was referrencing your $350 winnings (cash or equivalents) and that it would likely be surpassed by Mr. Wright's cash equivalents (such as a pint or three) compensation. Since you are correct and "what happens in Carnoustie stays in Carnoustie", we will never know.  

My point being, when you say that George Crump or Hugh Wilson or William Fownes are not amateurs in the same light as Oliver Wright because he had a day job is a bit to dismissive. It even suggests what you earlier termed a "homer" view of things. I'm not afraid of the "mine is better than yours" arguments, but they can only be given so much weight.

All this is not to say that your vote is not worthy of a real concensus. I would tend to agree with the recent post that Crump did have plenty of professional guidance, and Merion very likely does have alot of Flynn in it and there are probably a good number of other possibilities that should be considered, such as Oakmont. And not a soul has yet suggested Carnoustie's finish is anything but top shelf, so that (on this board) is probably as high a compliment as could be.

[Bill_McBride]

My thoughts on not splitting hairs about wonderful courses in comparison to each other -- Oakmont vs. Carnoustie for example, in this case just the finishes -- are at the heart of why I really hate ratings.  IMHO there are maybe fifty courses in the world, you know which they are, and I couldn't be forced under torture at Gitmo to pick one over the other.  And why should you have to, you can't play the one over the other the same day anyway!

Rich, you definitely need to "Experience" Oakmont.  I had a client who was a member there for several years, unfortunately he is now in golfing heaven on a full time basis.

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