[Tom Huckaby]

John:

Re #10, I fully agree it's an easier shot from the higher left side.  But wouldn't middle be best, as it is the highest point (fairway falls off to the left).

I also don't get how the green "opens up" from the left - all I see is a pretty tough bunker on the left side.  I sort of get what you mean there - more green is left than right.. from middle to front pins it's better to come in from that side... but for anything middle to back, isn't it better coming from the right?

In any case my real issue is this:  does any of the benefits of the left side really warrant flirting with OB?  That I don't see... that is, I don't see the reward being worth the risk.

TH

[DMoriarty]

Tom, the green "opens up" from the left because the golfer is hitting up the length of the green from closer to the same elevation of the green, as opposed to somewhat across the green from well below the green with limited visibility.  

As for left bunkers being in the way from the left, my putt from the 76 yard marker was from the left-center and I didnt have to carry any bunkers.  My guess is the left bunkers are more in play coming in from the right than the left.  

This is a pretty wide fairway, even if one does try to drive a little left of center.  I dont think there is any reason to "flirt with the O.B." [sic] since one can avoid the right side without flirting with the rocks left.  

I was surpised at how 'too much' you find the hole-- it provides strategy and rewards accuracy while still allowing the errant shot to stay in play.  Then I remembered that you played the back-nine first on Sunday Afternoon (as did I.)   Like many excellent holes, No. 10 may be 'too much' as an opening hole, especially in 107 degree heat after a long cart ride, a burger or two before that, and 18 holes of golf before that.  

Isn't it likely that your opinion would be much different
if your initial exposure had come when playing the hole in its regular position on a pleasant day and with better advice from the caddy?

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave:

I'm not sure that's what John Kirk meant by "opens up."  But OK, I get that.

The bunkers on the left side start at about the middle of the green and work to the back.  So like I said, I can see the principle for middle to front pins.  For the back pin, I don't see the advantage.

And yes, #10 was too much for an opening hole, especially when a caddie gives an incorrect line.  Well said there.  But you forget I also played it Monday morning, when I had no such issues.

And my opinion remains the same.  Just note I didn't say it's a bad golf hole, just that it's my least favorite.  And I remain open to changing this if someone can explain to me how risking OB is worth it.  I still don't see any reward explained that makes it worth the risk.

What makes the left worth risking OB for?   For a back pin, I don't see any reward at all... and for a middle to front pin, I don't see ENOUGH reward such that risking OB would be worth it.

Do you?

TH

[DMoriarty]

I changed my post above to clarify, but you must have already read my original.  You are quick.  

You dont have to risk the rocks left, but rather avoid going right.   This has got to be an 80 yard wide fairway and I dont think it is unreasonable to try to hit it just a little bit left of center in order to get closer, a better lie, better visibility, and a better angle.   Would this make more sense to you if there was a big nasty bunker on the right instead of the downslope?  

As for your Monday experience, maybe you were still suffering from Sunday.  I know I was.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave - that makes sense.  Left of center would be worth trying for - that's gonna be a great place to come in from to any pin.  I just don't see far left ever being worth it, and that's what I thought Tom D., John K, Jason T., you were all trying to say.

So the caddie advice would be to aim for left center, but favor right as a miss over left.  We do not want to go OB, and remember the kick going left.

As for putting another nasty bunker on the right, well... the bad would outweigh the good there.  Yes the choices would be more obvious, and risking OB would then become far more worth it... But then we get into too penal...and this course sure doesn't need any more severe bunkers.. and heck, to me a hole that's difficult to figure out is generally gonna be much better than one that's easy to figure out.  10 is proving to be much more difficult to figure out than it would otherwise seem.

Thus #10 is greatly rising in my esteem - thanks for helping me see this.

If I ever play there again though, I'm still just gonna bash it down the middle, or at least try to!

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
Are there any other holes that David can talk you into liking?

Joking aside, it proves a course like Stone Eagle needs as many looks as possible before passing such a stern judgement, especially when playing in very dry, hot, and I mean HOT-HOT conditions. Given all of the parameters, I'm thankful many of you did get to see it, as well as allow yourselves the desire to want to see it again in the future.

I know with the 10th, I have tried many times now to get it over on the left, maybe accomplishing it once or twice. I've been faced with that extra long carry to the green guarded not just by the bunkers on the right, but the entire right side of the hole. It's death if your in there, plus the green more or less can work against you, defending itself with that bold right tier to the back pin.

The hole is flush with very good golf architecture IF you want to study and observe it; better yet, learn how to accept it's challenges. Not to just go out there and flail away and deem the hole weak because one didn't play it very good, or in the case of many in this erudite group, too good.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy:

Heck, I didn't dislike any hole there.  Someone asked for a least fave, and 10 jumped out at me.  The more I think about it though, the more that was a wrong choice.  And yes, Dave did help with that as he's the only one to give me a good answer as to why one would tempt the far left - which is, there's no need to, but left center is a good goal.

I don't have another least fave.  I have a lot of potential faves.

Anyway you can save your lectures; I fully agree with you.

I also don't believe I personally ever passed any stern judgment on this golf course.  I gave one general critique, intended to be a small one and one not based at all on my own play, and decided to try and defend it.

TH

[John Kirk]

Tom,

I think we all agree it's better in the left half of the fairway, where you can see what you're doing.  I don't really care whether you are in the middle, or the left edge.  Dave correctly describes how the green allows a greater distance error from the left.  Also, I feel the left bunker comes into play much more from the right edge of the fairway, where most balls rolling down the slope end.  The uphill lie causes me to pull hook the ball in there.

Thank you for seeing things my way.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Ok, why I care to do this, the world may never know, but....

John - I don't think I ever disagreed that the shot is better coming in from the left.  What I remain incredulous about is why anyone would think it's worth tempting the far left and it's OB for.  Surely you don't think it's worth it, do you?  There's better and then there's BETTER, if you know what I mean.

And yes, I did just call you Surely.  

[Lou_Duran]

Tom Doak,

You guys did a wonderful job of hiding the sifted material and the areas where you had to cut and fill.  Compared to the Dye course at PGA West, SE is a great example of very natural, minimalist design.

Did the softness of the desert and how friable some of the rock is give you cause for concern?  I think it was on #6 on Sunday where we were looking for a ball on the right by the large bunker complex.  Someone lost his footing jarring loose a large boulder which proceeded to tumble down the steep slope most of the way to the bottom of the bunker.  It was still there on Monday, and perhaps it will become a permanent part of that hazard.

Has any thought been given to playing the desert as a lateral hazard like some courses in the Phoenix area?  Despite the wide fairways and large greens, the desert will still get a lot of play.  Our last round took upwards five hours and I can see some injuries happening.  As much as I dislike ESAs, their use at SE may be a good idea.  

[Bill_McBride]

Huck, you make a very patient whipping boy.  Stick to your guns!

My only objections to the golf course - at all - deal with the walkability and the circuitous cart paths.  Obviously their use is essential to building a solid playable course on land that looks like the other side of the moon!

Right now my memory of the individual holes is poor, due I'm sure to the heat stroke I was barely avoiding!  But I didn't see any holes I didn't like.  I loved the way you could walk to the back of a couple of greens (#6?) and see that the apparently benign drop off behind the green was actually a plunge to oblivion!    Looking back up at those greens from behind was very cool.

[John Kirk]

Tom,

I think you are misinterpreting my remarks.  I agree.  If you aim a little left of center, and end up on the high half of the fairway, it's better.  I'd never aim for the extreme left.

Surely this will be the last post on this thread.  About #10.  Fairway.

[Tom Huckaby]

John:

Come on, we can't let this die that easily.
 

Tom Doak seemed to say he wanted to reward the golfer who tempted the left side.  Are we all in agreement that taking this to too much of an extreme - ie hugging the left side - is silly?

Methinks this is a case of misinterpretation of Doak's remark by yours truly.

Basically the shot slightly left of center is most rewarded.  Wouldn't farther left on the fairway also give the uphill, pull lie due to the sloping off toward the rocks?  And it's a tough tee shot - that center "plateau" is pretty darn small... which is actually another cool part of the golf hole - the fairway is 80 yards wide or whatever, but the effective good spot is only what, 15-20?  But you're also not killed if you go too far right... it certainly is a longer tougher shot from down there, but the only death is too far left... and you know that, so you avoid it.

At first glance, off the top of my head, all of this did add up to "too much", and combined with all the disasters I witnessed there, it didn't seem to me to be a very fun golf hole.

But through this dissection and further thought, well... I have indeed changed my mind.  I'd like to think it's a good thing that learning can occur here.  We'll see what the edict from the imperial government is.

 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom H:  If you look back far enough, you will see that I said you should aim to the left center of the fairway, toward the Den at Ten, and not to hug the left side.

Lou D:  One of the cool things I noticed about the connected fairways is that in many cases, they provide a place to take a drop for an unplayable lie in the desert, if you go back a bit.  I would much rather stick with that, than start declaring the desert a lateral hazard so that players just bomb away off the tee.  But you are correct, all the rocks and desert make the course fodder for liability suits, I might not have taken it on if it wasn't a private club with low volume play.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom H:  If you look back far enough, you will see that I said you should aim to the left center of the fairway, toward the Den at Ten, and not to hug the left side.

Whoops.
But didn't you also say you wanted to reward the player who tempts the left?  That's what threw me off.  Really the reward is to stay left center on the plateau, no?  And going too far left isn't worth the risk?

Hey, these things are important to me.  I still have a lot of caddie in me.

 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:  Yes, you've got it right now.  The trick is how much can you hedge to the left-center (to try to stay up top) without risking a pull into the rocks.  Only in such a manner can an eighty-yard-wide fairway seem kind of tight.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom:  Yes, you've got it right now.  The trick is how much can you hedge to the left-center (to try to stay up top) without risking a pull into the rocks.  Only in such a manner can an eighty-yard-wide fairway seem kind of tight.

YES!
And thus the brilliance.
And let this be a lesson for one and all here, but I am about to type words that oh so rarely see the light of day in this forum....

I was wrong.

This is a damn good golf hole and calling it my least fave was rash and silly.  I'd love to play it again.

TH

[PThomas]

I was wrong.

I've immortalized this historic utterance on all my posts

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I was wrong.

TAA DAAA!!!!!

Welcome aboard the USS Understanding, enjoy the cruise! But just to let you know, the first sign of surrender is considered growth. Welcome to the party laddie, you can throw that white flag away now....

[Jeff Fortson]

I wish I would have chimed in earlier on this thread as I have a lot to share.  Unfortunately, I have been without internet access for weeks.  I am actually at an internet cafe checking my email and this thread.

First, I want to thank Tommy for all of his work in putting this together.  I felt it was a success and enjoyed being a part of it.

Second, thanks to The Palms, The Plantation, and Stone Eagle (all private clubs) for hosting us and letting us in to play their golf courses.  I think they are 3 of the best 5 courses in the desert.  

Thanks to all of you that I played with.  I enjoyed your company and look forward to playing with you all again.


Now, as for Stone Eagle, I would prefer to take it down one hole at a time as I think it is a course that warrants it.  Tommy represented my overall opinion of the course accurately.  I think it is the best course in the desert.  My only major problem with it is its walkability.  Obviously, little could be done about it considering the site it is on.

If anyone cares to discuss the holes individually or at least as a group of a few holes I'd be willing to do so.  

Overall, I think the course is VERY playable.  Since when are drives that are 50 yards off line supposed to be playable?  It offers plenty of room to drive a golf ball in play and there is generally plenty of room for missed iron shots.  Yes, there are a few holes where you simply have to "bring it" on a shot but what course doesn't have those?  I think it is the intimidating visuals of rocks, elvevation changes, and bunkers that get in people's heads.

I give Stone Eagle a BIG thumbs up.


What about peoples views of The Palms and Plantation?

Sorry to take so long to post.


Jeff F.

[rjsimper]

What about peoples views of The Palms and Plantation?

Jeff-
Here's a bit of help in catching up...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=23898

Get thee some internet access soon!

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