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Bob_Huntley

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Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« on: June 12, 2006, 01:23:21 PM »
TEXAS STATE AMATEUR GOLF
(At Dallas Country Club)
SUNDAY'S RESULTS

Final

Paul Haley, Dallas, 72-66-64-68–270.

Here is a golf course that rests on well under 100 acres with a par of 70. It is 6300 yards long with 3 par 5s and 5 par 3s.

Only eight players broke par out of an original field of 144 players.

The winner is 15 years of age, one of the runners-up was Terence Miskell, 31, a former pro who was reinstated in 2000.

Can Merion become relevant once more?


Bob


Tom Huckaby

Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2006, 01:26:51 PM »
Bob - of course it can - we have a great example right near us (Pasatiempo).  Yes the great players can tear that up, but give them tough pins and they won't.

I'm guessing this might be what occurred at Dallas CC.  But I have no idea.

So sure, grow the rough high enough and/or trick up the pins, and darn near any golf course can be a test at 6300 yards.  Isn't this what they'll do at Merion?

TH
trying to divert attention away from the thumping USA is taking.  Czech Rep. is GOOD.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2006, 01:40:28 PM »
Bob,

I think conditioning is the key. Unfortunately a good deal of that is in the hands of Mother Nature. The expertise of today's superintendents enables many of these sub-7000 yard courses to really challenge top players (I assume this is the group you are referring to) so long as weather allows for it.

Firm fairways and greens, fast undulating greens, unpredictable lies in the rough and bunkers and you've got a tournament course.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 01:40:42 PM by JES II »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2006, 01:53:44 PM »
Bob:  Have you ever been to Rye?

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 02:00:02 PM »
Tying in JES' post above, a few years ago, the Pacific NW Mid Am was held at Everett Golf and CC. 6180 Yards Par 72, very tight tree lined fairways and very, small slopy greens.  Held in September, where the course played very firm and fast, and with average rough.  Over 3 days, the winning score was even par with perfect weather. Granted these were mid ams, but still, there were some very good players..

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2006, 02:01:00 PM »
Tom,

Since you've noticed this thread there's a question (relating to this topic) I've been curious about your position.

At this yardage and the level of golf referrenced (state amateur championship), do you think the architecture or maintenance presentation weighs more heavily in determining success?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2006, 02:07:03 PM »
Huck, I had a playing lesson with one of our young pros at Columbia-Edgewater Saturday morning.  He played college golf for Oregon and his favorite course is Pasatiempo.  I asked him how the college kids went so low there if the greens were at 11, he says they just hit it so far everything is pitch and putt.  SW into par 4s, irons into par 5s.  But it's still his favorite course!

Tom Huckaby

Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2006, 02:12:49 PM »
Bill:

I'm convinced they don't give the college boys the evil pins.  Let's put it this way:  give me a month to let the rough grow, and let me set the pins, and I guarantee you I'd give a setup there at which Tiger Woods wouldn't break par.

Of course they don't do this - why would they?  It's goofy golf.

In any case, Pasa holds PLENTY of challenge for us mortals just as it is, with easy pins.  I just do think the sole and only way to give the big boys challenge at that type of distance would be via high rough and evil pins.

But perhaps Dallas CC is proving this wrong!  I know zero about it.

TH

Glenn Spencer

Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2006, 02:13:33 PM »
I have always maintained that it depends upon the amount of hidden yardage- short par 4's, short but dangerous par 3's and the like. Merion IMO is a great example of this on the scorecard at least, I have been there to see 13, but not played it. The hole is cake distance wise, but it certainly is a challenge, if all the shots on the course require as much thinking as this one, then it can be a challenge. Also, the holes that play uphill can make a huge difference as well. I have played some 540 par 5's that seem as long as can be. 380 can be a long par 4 uphill. It all depends. 220 downhill par 3's are not that bad, but 190 uphill can be a bear. The 6300 number is just a number, you have to play the course and then determine what kind of 6300 it is. I am just wondering about the example of the Texas Amateur though, to me, a 15-year old amateur shooting 66-64-68-198 (-12) over the last three days of a tournament says that it wasn't a challenge at all really. These are pretty low numbers for a state amateur. It seems like this kid was one bad round away from killing the place to me.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2006, 02:26:58 PM »
Bob:  Have you ever been to Rye?


Tom,

I lived there in 1949.

Bob

Tom Huckaby

Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2006, 02:31:04 PM »
Bob:  Have you ever been to Rye?


Tom,

I lived there in 1949.

Bob

God I love Mr. Huntley's ripostes.  Not that this has anything to do with golf or the price of tea, but one time I chided him for hopping on the Chelsea bandwagon, given that only in recent years have they dominated English football... to which he replied something to the effect "Thomas, I played for the Chelsea juniors after the war".  Game, set, match, shut up Huckaby.  Loved it.

 ;D ;D ;D

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2006, 02:34:16 PM »
Bob,

No.  Unless you greatly encourage the Bermuda rough, firm up the greens, and tuck the pins.  It then becomes a contest on who hits mid to long irons down the pipe from the tee, followed by conservative mid to short iron approaches.  For the most part, it takes the driver out of the player's hands, a club I consider to be one of the two most important in the game, and the one who provides the most satisfaction.

As to Dallas CC, other than for its blue blood membership, it does not have a great reputation in the area.  I think that Morrish has done some renovation there, but as you know, it is land-locked with little redesign flexibility.

Regarding the winner, he is a recent grad of Highland Park HS, 18 years old, and headed to Georgia Tech, no doubt to play college golf.  Highland Park, the Beverly Hills of Dallas, has a public school system that is a perennial powerhouse in golf, football, and a number of other sports.  Dallas CC is a home course for its golf team.  I think that other team members did well in the state am, including a top 10 finish by Alex Moon who I think is 15 years old.

I do wonder whether if the tournament was held at a more "complicated" course such as Dallas National all the young, relatively inexperienced players would have fared as well.  BTW, Mr. Miskell is older (around 40, I think), and relatively well know in the state am scene.  I read that he doubled the closing hole (to the winner's birdie) to lose by two.  Perusing the scores yesterday, I don't think the tournament drew a particularly strong field.  

 

wsmorrison

Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2006, 02:39:25 PM »
Merion East can give any state amateur level player trouble at 6300 yards even with the rough only 2.5 inches if the weather cooperates.  The 5989 yard Merion West could as well.  In fact I think there was flooding on the East course for a state am and they played the West the second day and the scores were higher!  Those that promote the notion that firm and fast through the green and firm and fast greens raises the difficulty level through greater strategic and execution requirements are correct.

I played in a member-guest this weekend at a club with the yardage at 6100 yards and it was very challenging for a guy who did well in the NJ state am at Deal.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 02:40:51 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2006, 02:58:57 PM »
Huck, Bob does have a gift for great comebacks. I too think Rye is a great test of golf for anybody.

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2006, 03:02:58 PM »
Eastward Ho!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2006, 03:11:26 PM »
Jim Sullivan:  I think both the architecture and the conditioning can have a great effect on this level of play.

The California State Am is at Pebble Beach every summer.  A friend of mine won it last year at age 40-something, despite a ton of college kids in the field.  I asked him what his advantage was, and he said that when it got windy, none of the college kids ever thought twice about leaving themselves on the downwind side of the hole, so they made a lot of bogeys.  That's a combination of maintenance, conditions, and Pebble's terrifyingly small greens.

Basically, any short course which has difficult tilted greens is going to be a bear when set up firm and fast.  If it's soft, OR if there's no tilt in the greens [or, God forbid, both], it's going to be easy for the kids no matter what.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2006, 03:11:48 PM »
    Southampton Golf Club (6300 yds, par 70) has hosted US Open Qualifying on several occasions and in total only 6-8 players have broken par. Rough is grown up including areas surrounding the greens and the greens are rolled to a stimp of about 10. They even spare them the silly pins and save them for the member-member tournaments!
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2006, 03:26:50 PM »
Basically, any short course which has difficult tilted greens is going to be a bear when set up firm and fast.  

Such was the case last year in the state amateur at Memphis CC - 6589 from the tips.  Six players under par with two more at level.  Champion (Tim Jackson) and runner-up (Danny Green) are former USGA mid-am champs.  Jackson birdied the last four holes to finish 6-under for the 72 holes and win the title by a single shot over Green.

Mike

« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 03:27:53 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2006, 03:38:47 PM »


Wayne

What factors do you think made Deal play so difficult at 6100 yards this past weekend?  Is the course always set up this way?  

wsmorrison

Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2006, 03:48:04 PM »
HBH,

It wasn't Deal at 6100 yards.  I referenced a guy in a pairing with my partner and I who is a member at Deal and played in the am there and found the 6100 yards on the course we were playing in the member-guest a challenge.

The member-guest was on the East Course at Merion set up at a mere 6100+ yards and playing soft with 2.5 inch and dense rough.  The course still played very difficult.  I had 7 3-putts in the first 9 holes and 9 altogether :-\ so it played especially difficult for me.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 04:01:53 PM by Wayne Morrison »

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2006, 09:27:30 PM »
In my mind Dallas CC has a solid stretch for 9 holes in the middle of the round.Also,there is OB all over the place.It isn't called the cage for nothing.The shoe shine guy at my barber shop got hit in the head waiting for his bus.

Bill Shotzbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2006, 09:51:16 PM »
Tomorrow is the first day of the Philly Am held at Torresdale Frankford. The deal is 18 at TFCC and 18 at Huntingdon Valley and the low advancing into match play. Just look at the scores at TF (6350, par 34+36=70) and then we'll see if 6300 yds can be a challenge.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2006, 11:41:21 PM »
Sean, no cows or horses = no wire fences, right?  That by itself would make the chipping easier at Pennard!  ;D

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2006, 09:22:36 AM »
I think 6300 yards can offer plenty of grief for all but the very best players.  I played Pennard (just over 6000 yards) this weekend and it was oh so difficult.  Fairways were already brown (the first course I have seen this year that was brown) and awkwardly narrow in some places.  The rough was high because there are no longer cows and horses on the course.  Combined with a 2-3 club wind (Richard reached #4 with a 3 wood/9 iron and #16 with a driver/9 iron!) the course was very testing.  Easily the most difficult I have seen Pennard play.  I didn't care for the rough, but chipping around the greens was very fun.

Ciao

Sean

Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Can 6300 yds be a challenge?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2006, 10:27:00 AM »
I thought it might need an explanation, this is the 3rd (?), a dog leg left par 5. The fairway starts in line with the glazed roof in the house, but the aiming post can just be seen dead centre of the picture.  

You didn't mention your 6 iron 2nd shot here travelling well over 230 yards straight through the green.

Which is the green front left in the picture?  One of things I admired about the design was the many ways there were of protecting the greens from the effect of the wind, making it very playable on the day I experienced.  

Note also the strollers walking across the course to the sea.

I will upload more pictures to show what a fantastic place it is.  Golf World has just published it’s bi-anual GB&I listing now expanded to 200.  You’ll be pleased to hear Princes at 101 and Addington 95.  However no place for Pennard.  Can there really be 175 courses in GB&I better than Pennard that I’ve yet to see?    
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 10:36:23 AM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

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