News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Patrick_Mucci

Required reading ?
« on: June 02, 2006, 08:05:24 PM »
Should Brad Klein's article in the 06-03-06 edition of Golfweek be required reading for Green Chairman, Green Commitees, Presidents and Boards ?

The article, "Quality can't be measured in yards" details the universal or systemic obsession with distance.

I've seen many courses alter, if not disfigure, wonderful holes in the blind pursuit of distance, scorecard readings.

At a club I'm familiar with, noone has broken par in qualifying for their club championship in 10 years, yet, the club wants to squeeze whatever additional yardage they can get from the land.

WHY ?

It's evidently challenging enough for the best players.

Why make it more difficult for all players ?

Has distance and lengthening holes become an obsessive-compulsive disorder at golf/country clubs ?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2006, 10:02:58 PM »
Patrick,

I particularly liked Brad's suggestion that if distance must be added, it should be added to the longer holes, not the short ones.  

Short holes have perhaps become more awkward with the greater distance better players are achieving - as confirmed by Nick Falso's reference to the resulting "twitchy little shots" in the article.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2006, 11:00:18 PM »
Its a shame because the shorter holes, generally, are the ones which are the most enjoyable for all levels of golfer.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2006, 10:26:18 AM »
Mike & Chris,

I'd agree, but for whatever reason, most clubs look at the shorter holes as an opportunity to pick up scorecard yardage, not understanding the harm they do to the play of the hole and the interfacing of the golfer with the intended architecture.

Mike Policano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2006, 11:14:44 AM »
Funny you mention this Pat.  I tore that page out yesterday.  I figure sooner or later I will run into someone who 'needs' to read it.

Cheers

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2006, 05:08:22 PM »
Mike,

I visited Ridgewood the other day.

I was delighted to see that they were widening some fairways.

It was also refreshing to see that there was no attempt to lengthen # 6 Center, # 8 Center or # 9 Center, or # 6 West.

Fortunately, some of those holes are landlocked and couldn't be lengthened if they wanted to.

Ridgewood continues to improve and has to be one of the most underrated courses anywhere.   It's the real deal with great diversity amongst the 27 holes.

I'm surprised that Brad's architectural column in Golfweek isn't discussed more on this site.

He picks a golf course, rates it by category, discusses the holes, provides commentary and an overall rating.

Just the sort of thing you would expect many GCA.comer's to dig their teeth into.


TEPaul

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2006, 05:13:36 PM »
"Has distance and lengthening holes become an obsessive-compulsive disorder at golf/country clubs?"

Is this the same Patrick Mucci who has constantly advocated adding maybe fifty yards to the 7th hole at NGLA, perhaps the most sacred golf architecture in America? Is this the same Patrick Mucci who has constantly advocated adding 50-60 yards to NGLA's #18 by moving the driveway and Macdonald's Gate?????

UNBELIEVABLE HYPOCRISY HERE!!!!!


----eg it's OK if Patrick Mucci proposes it but it's an obsessive/compulsive disorder if anyone else proposes it.





;)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 05:15:49 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2006, 05:29:01 PM »
TEPaul,

Not at all.

You have to differentiate between adding length for lengths sake and adding length to retain the interfacing of the architectural features with the golfer.

Like the Maginot line, the road hole bunker complex has become a vestigal feature due to high tech.

Restoring MacDonald's intended use of that feature is a noble pursuit, one that would reinstate strategy and thinking for golfers standing on the 7th tee.

And, that revitalization of strategy extends far beyond the tee shot, it would impact the second shot and the approach shot.

As to # 18, moving the gates 50 yards or 50 feet north reroutes the roadway, allowing the use of elasticity, a concept you, as a Flynn afficianado, should be familiar with.

That would allow the left side, semi cross bunker to come back into play, and it would restore the strategic nature of the tee shot, which would also affect the second shot and approach shot.

Changing the scorecard to read par 4 from par 5 does nothing to re-integrate the architecture with the golfer, in fact, it ignores the negative consequences brought about by high tech and distance.

You stubbornly resist the concept of retaining Charles Blair MacDonald's brilliant design and its intended integration with the golfer, choosing instead to suggest the reprinting of scorecards.

# 2 was lengthened for that purpose, as was # 8 and # 14.
Doing the same at # 7 and # 18 would greatly enhance the play of those holes as it would return the architectural features to their intended role of interfacing with the golfer.

TEPaul

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2006, 05:36:47 PM »
You can't have it both ways Patrick. If you're going to advocate what you just did above then don't write a post like the first one on this thread accusing others who add length to holes of having some kind of obsessive/compulsive disorder.

You are so inconsistent and hypocritical they need to write a new adage just for you which would be;

"Do what I say and not what I say."

;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2006, 05:40:49 PM »
TEPaul,

It's not about having it both ways, it's about having the ability to differentiate.

It's about retaining or restoring the interfacing of the architectural features with the golfer VERSUS eliminating or destroying the interfacing of the architectural features with the golfer.

Please tell me that you understand the difference.

Mike Policano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2006, 05:41:37 PM »
Pat,  Todd the Greens Super has done a great job.  Greens have been reclaimed, all the bunkers were redone to Hanse's Master Plan.  Trees have gone, been trimmed and I suspect more will disappear next winter.  The tree work has come a long way.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2006, 05:48:13 PM »
Mike,

It shows in the condition and playability of the golf course.

It's really a wonderful design and as it gets opened up, faster and firmer, it will only get better.

It's a fabulous golf course and club.
If it was in Iowa it would be top 25.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2006, 05:49:51 PM »
I belong to a club (Waterbury) which Brad Klein will know pretty well.  Recently we added new back tees to 7 holes - half the course excluding the par threes which we didn't touch.  The course is better, more challenging and probably more in keeping with the way Donald Ross wanted it to play, although I can't prove the latter.  Interestingly, the holes that were most affected were the longest par 4's, which were stretched from around 420 to 455 or so.  When Ross did the course in the '20's 420 yards was a long par 4, particularly the way he designed the holes with landing areas on an upslope.  In today's game 420 is a drive and a wedge or short iron for good players with decent length.  These holes needed to be stretched out to play as intended.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2006, 05:55:12 PM »
TEPaul,

It's not about having it both ways, it's about having the ability to differentiate.

It's about retaining or restoring the interfacing of the architectural features with the golfer VERSUS eliminating or destroying the interfacing of the architectural features with the golfer.

Please tell me that you understand the difference.

Seems to me the differentiation you are talking about works this way:
Only on courses where the STRATEGIC INTENT of the architect is so crystal clear should the lengthening of the hole take place to 'retain' the vaunted strategy. On every course designed by lesser talents than CB Macdonald, you can chill with your current yardage... peasants!

Next!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2006, 06:00:15 PM »
Anthony Butler,

If you're so ignorant of architecture that you're unable to understand the interrelationship of the features in the context of the playability of the golf course, and think that only courses designed by select architects reveal those relationships, then perhaps, other interests and pursuits should be in your future.  

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2006, 06:22:58 PM »
Phil, as I wrote in the column, if you're going to add length, do it to the holes that are already longer, but keep the ones that are shorter and preserve their basic playing character. Of course I mean this for long par-3s (+180 yards), par-4s (+420 yards) and par-5s (+525 yards), while preserving the more intimate character of the respectively shorter holes in each par cluster. The whole point is to differentiate between holes demanding full-bore shots and those requiring "twitchy" approaches, to paraphrase Faldo. The worst thing to do, and I see it a lot, is to push all of the short holes, turning all your par-3s into 180+ and par-4s into 420+. Generally makes for very boring golf.

You can tell when an architect has no regard for playing character of a hole and simply adds length, which is is exactly what happened with Fazio & Co. at Winged Foot-West wth those absurd, dead level parking lot tees they added on about half a dozen holes. Lifeless.

TEPaul

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2006, 07:07:44 PM »
"TEPaul,
It's not about having it both ways, it's about having the ability to differentiate.
It's about retaining or restoring the interfacing of the architectural features with the golfer VERSUS eliminating or destroying the interfacing of the architectural features with the golfer.
Please tell me that you understand the difference."

Patrick:

Of course I understand the difference but you said nothing like that in your opening post on this thread. What you seemed to say on that post is adding distance to old courses is a obsessive/compulsive disorder in clubs---PERIOD.

If you meant to say that it's a obsessive compulsive disorder either when or because they don't know the difference between when it can work well and when it can't, then that's what you should've said in the first place.

As to whether it works well or not who do you think should make those kinds of decisions and how do you think it can ever be determined whether it was successful or not?

I most certainly have my own opinions on those things and I am for adding distance to holes if it can be done well architecturally and if it makes sense strategically and conceptually for all the players who plan on using that added distance.

TEPaul

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2006, 07:30:30 PM »
"Phil, as I wrote in the column, if you're going to add length, do it to the holes that are already longer, but keep the ones that are shorter and preserve their basic playing character. Of course I mean this for long par-3s (+180 yards), par-4s (+420 yards) and par-5s (+525 yards), while preserving the more intimate character of the respectively shorter holes in each par cluster. The whole point is to differentiate between holes demanding full-bore shots and those requiring "twitchy" approaches, to paraphrase Faldo."

Brad:

The whole point of adding length to holes is a WHOLE LOT MORE than just differentiating between holes demanding of full-bore shots and those requiring "twitchy" approaches.

The WHOLE POINT of considering adding length to ANY golf hole is to understand what its strategic concept is and if it's a good one not screwing it up by adding length to it or too much length to it that upsets that strategic concept or intent or frankly any of its sometimes relatively delicate and nuancey shot values.

The most pitifully stupid rationale I can imagine from any architect or golf analyst is to just ASSUME that since some scratch players can fly the ball maybe 280 to 300 that ALL scratch players can and then go and make some decision on some hole that puts a particular type of LZ out there that far.

That is about the perfect prescription for what I call a total strategic disconnect and arhitectural disaster and golfer discontent.

One does not just add length to all long holes just because they are long---one logically takes the time to figure out what added length to ANY hole, long or short will mean in play.

A hole like Merion's #18, a really great hole in general, is such a potential strategic disconnect and it may now be right on that cusp. Sure there's nothing wrong in theory with making a par 4 at or near 500 yards but not if you take a forced carry tee shot out to a potential must of perhaps 280 considering various conditions such as wind.

Doing something like that on a hole like that one is a potential strategic disconnect of the worst form. Unfortunately PV's new back tee puts that hole dangerously close to that strategic disconnect and if they actually take #4 back 50-60 yards as is being considered it will take that particular hole way over the line into a real strategic disconnect for way too many who actually have to use that tee at times.

Doing things like that are the very worst form of architectural error, in my book.

So, one can't just say adding length to long holes and not short holes is the thing to do. Adding length to a hole like PV's #16 is doable strategically for all low handicap or scratch golfers because the golfer has a huge distance differential in his choice of tee shot options but the same is not remotely true of PV's #4, #18 or Merion's #18.

 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 07:48:02 PM by TEPaul »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2006, 07:49:32 PM »
TEP,

your comment reflects what I fear is happening to too many on this Website, namely not reading the original (printed)  text. You're responding to what I posted, but what I posted is a short version of what I wrote, which was a commentary about how misplaced the whole emphasis on length is.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 07:49:55 PM by Brad Klein »

TEPaul

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2006, 08:40:40 PM »
Well Goddamnit to Hell Bradley Klein will you just work on a bit more consistency between your short version and your long version??

What the Hell are you trying to do to me---just mislead me at every turn like that fudging, weasely Wiffensnoozer, Patrick Mucci?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2006, 09:04:03 PM »
Actually, my dear TEP, the two of you (i.e. the three of us) agree on this topic, and if you'd stop for a moment with your snortin' and contortin' you might actually see that.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2006, 10:05:47 PM »
Brad,

I think you'd like the work done at Waterbury.  The holes that are supposed to be long par 4's are long par 4's again.  The only par five is closer to a legitimate par 4.5, whereas before we added 25 yards or so it was an ersatz par 5 - way too easy for a good golfer. The course ain't Pinehurst #2 but I think the added length has made it more interesting.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2006, 11:35:39 PM »
Anthony Butler,

If you're so ignorant of architecture that you're unable to understand the interrelationship of the features in the context of the playability of the golf course, and think that only courses designed by select architects reveal those relationships, then perhaps, other interests and pursuits should be in your future.  

Patrick Mucci,

Many things I could post here that would gain audible yuks here from your 'fan base' but since I have taken a vow on another thread to be nice to small children, animals and others less fortunate, I am going to ask you nicely to actually respond to the point of my previous post. i.e. you articulated a very narrow criterion for deciding which holes are eligible for lengthening. All in an effort to recapture the strategy/challenge of a golf hole that is either gone for good (your opinion from other threads on equipment/distance) or, more accurately, never went anywhere for 99% of golfers.

Care to expand?



« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 12:34:15 AM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

TEPaul

Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2006, 08:50:44 AM »
"Actually, my dear TEP, the two of you (i.e. the three of us) agree on this topic, and if you'd stop for a moment with your snortin' and contortin' you might actually see that."

Brad:

I do see that and I always have. It's just that some of these threads can get so excruciatingly boring, hair-splittin' and minutae-ridden I must snort and contort, and regularly.

I have little doubt that if you and me and Patrick went out on any golf hole to analyze what if anything need be done to it you and I would likely agree in a New York second and the two of us would deposit Mucci's head in the face of any available bunker in about half that time.

Actually, what's the diameter of a standard sized cup? Is it 4 1/4 inches? I have little doubt, at this point, we could fairly easily get Patrick's head into the nearest available cup.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 08:58:19 AM by TEPaul »

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Required reading ?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2006, 09:32:43 AM »
Anthony Butler,

If you're so ignorant of architecture that you're unable to understand the interrelationship of the features in the context of the playability of the golf course, and think that only courses designed by select architects reveal those relationships, then perhaps, other interests and pursuits should be in your future.  

Patrick Mucci,

Many things I could post here that would gain audible yuks here from your 'fan base' but since I have taken a vow on another thread to be nice to small children, animals and others less fortunate, I am going to ask you nicely to actually respond to the point of my previous post. i.e. you articulated a very narrow criterion for deciding which holes are eligible for lengthening. All in an effort to recapture the strategy/challenge of a golf hole that is either gone for good (your opinion from other threads on equipment/distance) or, more accurately, never went anywhere for 99% of golfers.

Care to expand?

TE Paul wrote
Quote
I have little doubt that if you and me and Patrick went out on any golf hole to analyze what if anything need be done to it you and I would likely agree in a New York second and the two of us would deposit Mucci's head in the face of any available bunker in about half that time.

Actually, what's the diameter of a standard sized cup? Is it 4 1/4 inches? I have little doubt, at this point, we could fairly easily get Patrick's head into the nearest available cup.

Kind of a 'rabid' fan base...
Next!