[ChipOat]

The greens are absolutely the best they've ever been, IMO.  For years, the grass and root structure was "thin", they felt sandy and, while not soft, they never really felt hard - even after being rolled.

Now the grass on the greens is thick and the surfaces are legitimately hard - pitch marks are very shallow and not broken apart.  Really just indentations instead of a semi-gouge with little pieces to replace.

As a result, the greens are quite dangerous and being above the hole is not a good idea at all.  I was able to stay underneath the hole on both #'s 12 & 15 so I can't say if those greens are "unfair" under current conditions.

Still a fair amount of very penal "hay" in places that is instant lost ball (slows up play for the members) but the 1st and 2nd cuts of rough are quite playable.

The fairways are in excellent condition although probably not as tightly mown nor "firm and fast" as they would like (#16 being the exception - it reminded me of Shinnecock/NGLA).

The greenside bunkers play really tough (as intended) but are still difficult to enter in many places.

What struck me the most was the truly excellent quality of the putting surfaces.  They have simply never been better.

[mike_malone]

 Chip,

   I wonder how much the dry spring we had in Philly has to do with your observation. I think many courses are experiencing this firmness.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Chip

I was there a week ago Thursday and I concur with everything you wrote.

The 12th and 15th greens are extreme to be sure.  Every putt from 2 feet and out will cause a tightened grip and a bit of a prayer.  On 12, the pin was back right and Wayne was nearly pin high left while I had a little pitch from front right (left corner of bunker).  The pitch with a bit of spin stipped a foot from the hole while Wayne's putt was near impossible unless you toppk it up to the fringe and hit it perfectly (It was a great Neil challenge putt).  On 15, I had a 3 footer with a foot of break. Any more speed and they will require the touch of a safecracker.

Our RHC friend Andy always tells me that he enjoyed the German bent at Merion growing up and the new grasses while plaing nicely were not nearly as good.  Do you have an opinion on that topic?

[mike_malone]

 BillV

   I have noticed that the humidity in the last week has mellowed things and the rain has been scattered about recently making it a crapshoot of sorts for moisture. I am interested as to when Chip was there.

[Jim Sweeney]

I don't know about Philly but here in Cincinnati area the weather this Spring ahs been ideal for growing grass. Cool and dry. Isn't this a super's dream? Very low stress due to temperature and able to control the moisture?

Hope it keeps up and that it bodes well for courses when the real heat and humidity comes.

[mike_malone]

 Noel,

   I defer to TEPaul on this but you may have experienced "ball creep" rather than grain . I wondered about this at my course and Tom told me that is what he calls it. It seems that this wonderful firmness we have had just has balls rolling on . It isn't "speed" to me ; it just seems to be a slower stopping.

[Noel Freeman]

Wayne once told me it was grain..  I must say Mike that after playing Merion #5, I now agree with Wayne and his idea to put a bunker on the right of RG #7..

[Geoffrey Childs]

 It isn't "speed" to me ; it just seems to be a slower stopping.

I nominate this for the quote of the week!

Mayday- what is speed for an object that does not have brakes?

[Noel Freeman]

I play regularly (when I can) at Deal which is baked out links during the summer and I don't see "ball creep" there.. different kinds of green grasses obviously but those are baked solid and felt more controlled than Merion's.

[Geoffrey Childs]

"gravity" vs. "resistance"

Yeah- even on the majority of putts that are not downhill (= level or uphill)  

[TEPaul]

Chip:

Well why the Hell wouldn't Merion be precisely as you described---they have bought into THE IDEAL MAINTENANCE MELD----BIGTIME!!    

Mayday;

Green surface firmness and green speed are basically two different animals and as such they effect basically two different areas of playability, although naturally there is some overlap.

Green surface firmness primarily affects approach and recovery shots and the ability of a golfer to control the ball once it hits the green surface.

Green speed primarily affects putting.

Greens can be extremely fast but soft and a golfer can contol his ball well on approach and a green can be slow but extremely firm and a golfer will not be able to control his ball well on approach.

Obviously when greens are both firm AND fast the challenge of playing to them, around them and on then increases and sometimes exponentially.

"Ball Creep" basically has to do with putting and is a phenomenon that kicks in exponentially when green speed gets near 11 on the stimp and above.

A stimpmeter does not know and cannot tell if a putting green is firm or soft, it only measures the speed a ball travels across it. Greens can be 13 and soft or 7 and firm or any other combination thereof.

But the green's firmness does not directly effect greenspeed.

[mike_malone]

 Geoff,

   I often hear people calling a putt "fast" when it really isn't moving quickly; it just isn't stopping! There is a difference to me.


  Noel,

   Merion #5 is a great hole the way it is. I would not recommend removing the bunker to make it like #7 at Rolling Green. Excuse me, that's not what you were recommending  was it?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoff,

   I often hear people calling a putt "fast" when it really isn't moving quickly; it just isn't stopping! There is a difference to me.

Mayday - the only way I can think of to measure "speed" (perhaps a bad term here) is the distance traveled when struck by a specific and constant force. A very "slow" green will require a hard strike of the ball and the initial velocity off the clubface may therefore be higher then for the same length putt on a "fast" green.

TEP- you must remember the german bent grass surfaces at Merion.  Were they smoother and quicker then the current greens?

[Noel Freeman]

Uh no... Mayday.. I meant put the bunker in on the right side of #7 at Rolling Green.. I see the logic behind it.

[mike_malone]

 Geoff,

   I'm no scientist . So, I won't comment on your definition. But I certainly sense some impact on the greens which I guess to be from the firmness. It may be related to Bill's resistance idea. I have putted for many years on my home course greens and there is something different this year .

[John Kavanaugh]

Mayday,

Sometimes greens are sticky and sometimes not..has nothing to do with speed.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoff,

   I'm no scientist . So, I won't comment on your definition. But I certainly sense some impact on the greens which I guess to be from the firmness. It may be related to Bill's resistance idea. I have putted for many years on my home course greens and there is something different this year .

Mayday- resistance = friction - Gravity will not vary on an identical putt hit over and over at the same or different applied forces. The friction will change given different grass heights, blade widths, moisture or grain. and thus result in different amouts of applied force on the ball to travel a given distance = "speed"  The stimpmeter applies a constant force if you will on the ball by rolling it down a plane of constant height and angle.

[wsmorrison]

Geoff,

Please don't confuse Mike Malone with facts and figures.  He has a hard enough time inventing realities to deal with his strange imaginings.  If he has to confront the real world he may become even more unstable and his outlook will become ever more disconnected.
 
For whatever non-physical reason Mike senses that green firmness is related to green speeds.  You and others have tried to explain things to him rationally.  He just doesn't get it.  Either humor him while you motion for the men in white coats and straightjacket or back away slowly to a safe distance and run away without looking back

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

The green speed thing you've just noticed---"Ball Creep" is all about friction (or lack of it).

Once green speed gets around 10 1/2 and over "ball creep" kicks in. It can make the "playability" of chipping and putting a whole new world for the golfer. I think it's really fun and requires a whole different output of imagination from the golfer.

But the caveat is that "whole new world" of fun and interest of putting and chipping only lasts for a little while---or more precisely only through a relatively narrow differential on the stimpmeter. I think that "differential" is only maybe a foot and a half or two feet---no more. Once you get above that "playability" can just get silly on certain types of greens.

For instance, if you have a certain breaking putt which you'd need to play one foot of break at 9 to have the ball go in the hole or come to rest right around it you may need to play five feet or more break when the stimp is at 11  to have the ball come to rest around the hole. It's exponential because the actual increase in speed is just a little over 20% but the effect on break and playability in that particular 22%  increased differential may be be 500%.

That's the exponential factor that kicks into playability once "Ball creep" kicks in around 10 1/2 to 11 which is nothing much more than lack of friction or lack of resistance of the surface to the ball whether it's just the grass or some moisture or whatever.

You think the ball is about to stop as it does at lower stimp readings but it doesn't, it just keeps creeping for a while.

I guarantee you that the differential of 10-11 on the type of greens you have is a whole new world of "playability" than any reading below that.

But don't forget, on greens like yours above a real 11 insanity and silliness kicks in real fast because the ball builds up too much speed transitioning across various slopes and contours and "ball creep" gets too excessive when the ball slows down.

[Andy Hughes]

Tom, serious question--for someone who never plays those types of greens, what would you expect the result would be for a decent player for approach shots, chips/pitches and putting?

[ChipOat]

Mayday:

It was the real density of the grass that was dfferent - no sand in the greens.

Geoffrey:

With all due respect to Andy, I think the greens are the absolute best they've ever been - period.

TomP:

Merion has been trying to get the greens like this for 20+ years.  Something good happened beyond a philosophical epiphany, I tihnk.

[wsmorrison]

Chip,

Glad to learn the greens are as fine as you've seen in 20 years.  I played on them a week ago and think they're perfect and a real challenge at any speed, even the 9.5 they are running lately.  

Given your long history with the club, what has been your experience with grain?  Eleven green is the lowest point of the course, so does the grain follow gravity towards the 11th green?  It seems as if you take a bit extra allowance for grain toward 11 green it helps putts.  Maybe it is also the compass direction as well with the 11th at the most SE portion of the course?  I have no idea and am just guessing.  I'll also ask Bill Dow who goes back about 30 years at Merion and has played it for longer than that.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Mayday:

It was the real density of the grass that was dfferent - no sand in the greens.

Geoffrey:

With all due respect to Andy, I think the greens are the absolute best they've ever been - period.

TomP:

Merion has been trying to get the greens like this for 20+ years.  Something good happened beyond a philosophical epiphany, I tihnk.

Thanks Chip - I must say they were (as your first post mentioned) darn near perfect in every way. Merion is quite amazing.

[ChipOat]

Wayne:

The grain is too subtle for me to notice (no mountain like at Baltusrol) although perhaps the putts toward the water on #'s 4, 12 and 13 are even quicker than the green contours would otherwise cause on their own.  I can't feel much extra speed on #9 going across that green; you're probably right about #11 but it only matters if the flagstick is in the front and your ball is in the back IMO.

[Willie_Dow]

Wayne & Chip - My best caddies always said the grain runs toward the sun.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()