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Patrick_Mucci

Why do clubs resist changing par for the course ?
« on: November 11, 2002, 05:34:30 PM »
Tom Doak's response on another thread got me to thinking of the resistance to change that I've witnessed at a number of clubs, namely, the resistance to change the overall par of the golf course, even though, as Tom Doak indicated, it may be in the best interest of the golf course.

Why do clubs have a phobia with respect to changing par from
72 to 71, 73 or 70 ?

An answer of: "it will cost money to print new scorecards" will be disqualified.   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2002, 05:58:07 PM »
Patrick,

I can't wait to hear the answers to this one.

Most of it, I think, is a resistance to anything but par 72.  Many of my new course clients ask me if a par-70 course can really be good?  (I tell them about Pine Valley and Merion and Shinnecock, but they still are uneasy with it.)

The other half of your question is, why doesn't the USGA just go ahead and change par?  In the 1920's the limit for a par four was 445 yards.  I don't know when exactly it changed to 470.  But I do know for the last five years the USGA has upped it to about 490 for their own championships.  The only reason they don't change it in the rule book is because so many clubs would FREAK OUT if their par changed.

P.S.  We did change par at Pasatiempo a couple of years ago.  There was tons of argument about it at the time, but I haven't heard a word about it since.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2002, 06:02:00 PM »
Ok, I'll bite ...

Par 72 and 71, less so with a Par 70 courses are considered "normal" or "championship".  Anything less is generally believed to be "substandard".

Therefore, no club and no club President would want to be the one who changed their club to a par 68 on his watch.  It may be that the end result is a better product, and over time would earn the respect it deserves, but the process of change will kill you.

Let's use Pebble (this was a topic I was waiting to post for this vary reason) as example, what holes would you change to make it a Par 68?  (the only ground rule would be that you have to use existing green complexes, i.e. no new greens ...)

My changes would be:

#2 - shorten to between 400-450 yard as a par 4 (-1)
#8 - move tee box to the edge of the cliff making it a 160-210 yard par 3 (-1)
#14 - shorten to a 418-452 yard par 4 (-1)
#18 - move tee box up, less carry over water, to make it a 420-465 yard par 4 (-1) ...
 
Comments?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2002, 06:46:55 PM »
I think that the urge to conform to a "championship" standard (par-72, 7000yds.) is very powerful, particularly in the world of golf in the US, where status, standing and ego are perceived to be so important among the members of far too many golf/country clubs.
In the UK, there are many wonderful courses that have a par of 68 or 69. The courses are enjoyable to play for both
members and guests and are in no way a lesser golf experience. Here in the US, the notion of a par-68 course goes over like a lead balloon.
Another standard of conformity is having two par-3s and two par-5s on each nine, regardless of whether the land under the golf course suggests the holes should be placed in that fashion.    
It would be interesting to see what would happen here if a terrific piece of land for a golf course became available but was only perhaps 100 acres in size, big enough only for a 6,000yd, par-68 golf course with 18 great golf holes. Would anyone have the guts to build such a course? How many people would join there?    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Bick

Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2002, 07:08:14 PM »
I'll offer an opinion only for private clubs. Courses which need to market themselves (for greens fees, real estate, whatever) are a different case. From the board's perspective, it's the classic issue to avoid, because the kind of people who think about it aren't very passionate (since at bottom they don't think par is relevant, as discussed in another thread) while the opponents are likely to be. Better to save political energy for removing trees, etc.

Actually, probably a similar dynamic for non-private, in that it's hard to see incremental business from changing but easy to see some possible loss.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2002, 08:24:40 PM »
Patrick;

Back about a week ago I made the same argument that the true definition of par clearly dictated that the yardage guidelines needed "updating".  

To wit, I wrote something like;

Par 3 - Up to 275 yards
Par 4 - 280 - 540
Par 5 - beyond 550

I based this assertion strictly on the definition of par as "what an expert player should make (without mistakes) on any hole given two putts".

I also asserted that perhaps NGLA should now be a par 70 or 71, ANGC a par 70, Merion perhaps a par 69 or 68, etc.

Why won't clubs adopt this sensible approach, you ask?  

The same reasons that balding men wear toupees, aging actresses get face lifts, and the USGA insists that they are seriously looking at returning the US Open to Merion....they are all slightly uncomfortable to face the realities of what everyone around them recognizes.  

Simply put, they are trying to feel better about themselves by focusing on comfortable illusions.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Glen_Fergo (Guest)

Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2002, 08:54:18 PM »
Are we talking here simply of the par for pros or ordinary club golfers? It is a completely different subject for the two groups. How many average club members can reach a 470 yard hole in 2 shots?

In Australia many of the second tier courses have Kikuyu fairways and rough, in normal conditons you are lucky to get 10-15 yds of run.

Do we want to have different systems of par around the world again or just allow courses to set the par for a hole that is required.

I have played many holes well under 470 yds that are Par 4's because of the nature of the terrain.


In Australia our course rating system has something to do with it. We don't have a slope system, you play off the same handicap wherever you play.

The Calculated Course Rating (CCR) for the day is determined by the scores in a comp but can't go more than two over the Local Golf Association designated CR.

At one of my home courses in Sydney (Par 72 Rated 74) the CCR can only go to 76, in Winter it could be 86 and still be be too low for half the field.

At NSW Golf Club (World top 100) it regularly has a 3-5 club wind (and you can't stop the ball downwind). It signature hole, the 6th at 165 yds from the members tee (200 yds from Medal Tee) can play as a Par 4 as most of the field can't reach the hole with a driver.

I aslo take you point on what clients want but some of the best courses I've played are Par 70 or below, one Rye in England has been mentioned here and is a Par 67!
Quote
Patrick,

I can't wait to hear the answers to this one.

Most of it, I think, is a resistance to anything but par 72.  Many of my new course clients ask me if a par-70 course can really be good?  (I tell them about Pine Valley and Merion and Shinnecock, but they still are uneasy with it.)

The other half of your question is, why doesn't the USGA just go ahead and change par?  In the 1920's the limit for a par four was 445 yards.  I don't know when exactly it changed to 470.  But I do know for the last five years the USGA has upped it to about 490 for their own championships.  The only reason they don't change it in the rule book is because so many clubs would FREAK OUT if their par changed.

P.S.  We did change par at Pasatiempo a couple of years ago.  There was tons of argument about it at the time, but I haven't heard a word about it since.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Glen_Fergo (Guest)

Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2002, 08:58:34 PM »
Why do we have to change at all? Aren't most clubs also looking for tradition?

If Par is set for "experts" how do mere mortals assess there performance? Is that why we have a handicapping system?
Quote
Patrick;

Back about a week ago I made the same argument that the true definition of par clearly dictated that the yardage guidelines needed "updating".  

To wit, I wrote something like;

Par 3 - Up to 275 yards
Par 4 - 280 - 540
Par 5 - beyond 550

I based this assertion strictly on the definition of par as "what an expert player should make (without mistakes) on any hole given two putts".

I also asserted that perhaps NGLA should now be a par 70 or 71, ANGC a par 70, Merion perhaps a par 69 or 68, etc.

Why won't clubs adopt this sensible approach, you ask?  

The same reasons that balding men wear toupees, aging actresses get face lifts, and the USGA insists that they are seriously looking at returning the US Open to Merion....they are all slightly uncomfortable to face the realities of what everyone around them recognizes.  

Simply put, they are trying to feel better about themselves by focusing on comfortable illusions.  
:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2002, 10:26:01 PM »
Glen, if most members can't reach a 470 yard par 4 in two, they shouldn't be playing from the back tees on a course long enough to have one.  That's why there are more than one set of tees.  Unless you have an uncommonly skilled membership, those playing from the back tees ought to be in the minority.

If the issue of "which tees should I be playing" ever comes up, I always say that if you are mostly playing wedges on approach, move back.  If you are mostly playing woods, move up.  A player who is unable to reach a 470 yard hole in two is probably going to be hitting woods to a good portion of the par 4s on a course long enough to have a 470 yard par 4.

Obviously a 36 handicapper who drives it 150 can play from the tips on a 7500 yard course if he really wants to, and he keeps pace.  I'll absolutely defend his right to make that stupid choice, but I won't tolerate him complaining that he can't reach the 470 yard par 4 (in 3...:))
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2002, 10:58:03 PM »
Doug

Aren't the operative words ".....if he really wants to, and he keeps pace."  I can envisage many holes that would be more interesting and challenging to the 150-yard hitter if played from the tips.  The 8th at Pebble Beach immediately comes to mind.  For a short hitter, playing from the tees at the top of the hill just mean tacking to the left cautiously for a couple of shots and then hoping to get on the green in 3 with a short iron.  From the back tees, the carry up the slope is a challenge in itself, and once made, the second shot to the left is a very testing one, as is the third.

I also, BTW, think that hitting wedges into greens, if they are well designed, should not necessarily send one to the back tees.  I can think of many holes where it is a lot more fun, and challenge to hit wedge than 3-iron on your 2nd shot.  The 14th at Dorncoh comes immeidately to mind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2002, 11:33:44 PM »
Patrick --

Why do clubs resist changing par for the course?

Because, at most clubs, resisting change is par for the course!

Boy, you ask some easy questions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

B. Mogg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2002, 04:51:29 AM »
Here in Asia, the par 72, 7000 yard golf course (with 2 par 3's and 2 par 5s per nine) is an obsession amongst golfers and developers alike. Why, when land is an issue and Asian golfers are generally shorter (off the tee  ;D) and perhaps less skilled golfers than their companions in the US, Oz and Europe is beyond me. Perhaps its is something to do with conformity and fear of sticking out from the crowd, which is an issue for all people but Asians in particular.

Now if the US model could be changed to demonstrate more flexibility with regards to length and par - as a reaction to smaller land parcels - the rest of the world would follow. Until that happens, we are doomed to suffer "regulation" par 72, 7000+yard courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2002, 06:36:00 AM »
Patrick,
It may have an upward effect on the course's slope rating, effectively lowering member handicaps.  
Two of the ten obstacle factors used in determining slope are:
  
*Green Target -A measurement of the probability of hitting the green from the fairway landing zones. The relationship between the length of shot played and size of the green determines these values. (i.e., long shots to small greens will generate higher values than short shots to large greens)      
*Psychology - A measurement of the cumulative effect of the other nine obstacles.

This would also require the club to spend money for new scorecards.  ;D

*(USGA website)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2002, 08:27:17 AM »
An interesting question indeed! A question that's quite complex too for some people (given certain circumstances).

However, I believe most of the question of "par" itself and the question of changing par for a hole or course is not much more than "perception".

As was mentioned above the concept of "par" is essentially the baseline on which the entire handicap concept and the entire handicap system is built. If "par" could be looked at more realistically and more accurately that way, I don't believe there would be much resistance to changing par on CERTAIN holes and courses.

Again, the entire handicap system and things like "course rating" and even "slope" and handicap hole allocations are based on the concept of "par".

For some reason increasing numbers of handicap golfers have come to believe that par is something normally acheivable for them! Nothing of the kind. Hard par holes are intended to be "bogie" holes for the handicap golfer.

Probably the simplest way to break the prevalent misperception that slope is the difficutly of a golf course for everyone would be to publish the "Bogie rating" that all course raters establish to create the "slope rating" (by subtracting the "course rating" (what a scratch player is expected to shoot) from the "bogie rating" (what a bogie golfer is expected to shoot)).

Also for some reason too many handicap golfers have come to think of the concept of "strokes" (the holes strokes are allocated to them) as the holes that they're supposed to have an advantage over a "scratch" golfer. Again, nothing of the kind! It's those holes that a handicap golfer needs strokes to "equal" the score normally made by a scratch golfer.

This is also the reason why some golfers assume that very difficult holes (against par) are the holes they need the strokes on. Again, nothing of the kind. The reason is often these are the hole where its harder for the scratch player to make par than it is the handicap player to make bogie--hence there is not so much need for a handicap stroke.

(By the way, Tom Doak, hole #4 Stonewall is probably the most realistically handicapped hole (I believe #1) I've almost ever seen although very few golfers understand why it should be that low!).

But as to the perception problem of dropping par on a hole or a golf course-that can be complicated in certain circumstances. First you have to have a hole where that would be easy to do without redesigning the hole somehow. Certainly not all par 5s are good candidates to drop par on. Pine Valley certainly has none and either does Merion. But NGLA, for instance has at least two great candidates to drop par down and maybe even three without doing much of anything to the hole (other than moving the tee blocks a little).

I don't really understand the fixation of having to have a par 72 course either. I think one of the main reasons to have par 72 for some of these new construction courses is it's logically easier to get a par 72 course to or over 7000 yards (without facing the lack of variety problem) than it is to get a par 71 course and certainly a par 70 course to or over 7000yds. I think the total card yardage thing is the biggest reason that people think of when estimating difficultly (not necessarily the par).

Frankly to me the par 70 courses are the hardest of all or certainly seem to me to be (although other golfers seem to view it in the reverse!).

But apparently when the recommendation to drop par on a hole and course is made it's generally the handicap golfer that resists. For some reason they think that's making the hole harder for them and not the scratch golfer when the reverse is true. And that generally will be borne out by the fact that those holes are the ones that will then go from the highest shot holes to the lowest shot holes, something that the handicap golfer should be glad for! He won't score any different on the hole and either will the scratch player but he will now get a shot on the hole where he needs it more to even things out!

But basically all this stuff of dropping par on holes (and courses) that need to have it dropped are problems of perception--or I should say misperception. And that's the primary reason there's resistance. Educate everyone to what par really is and is supposed to be, though, and that resistance should go away or minimize.

I must admit, though, that those courses like NGLA and Maidstone that are par 73 and 72 respectively are by far the best candidates to have their pars dropped because they both have par 5s where that would be very easy and logical to do (again without redesign) and the also have "extra par numbers" to play with (to drop) to get to 72, 71 or 70!

But other courses like Merion and Pine Valley (and other present par 70s) don't really have that option to drop their pars because if they dropped to a total par with a "6" in front they're going to have another massive perception problem of being considered too easy!!

Again, another misperception but one that would be near impossible to overcome, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Bronco

Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2002, 05:03:55 PM »
Sorry Mr. Mucci if this is off topic but...

Does anyone else see this 7,400+yd. trend eventually running its course?  I do.  If you watch people play everyday, it's already taking waaaaaaay too long (and I don't care what tee they're playing from).  

Make courses longer? No!  Make it shorter so we can finish!  

Here in the USA, everyone is in a hurry to get somewhere, and its only going get worse.  People don't even have time (or take the time) to learn the game like we did.

This probably goes against the grain but I can see it, probably sooner than later, a repopularizing of par 68's and 66's, and 64's..  It could turn out to be one of those like it or not deals.
Sorry about the negative vibe....  Just trying to keep it real.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2002, 08:24:51 PM »
It might be based on a natural resistance to change and the perception of symmetry.

I think many clubs equate par 72 / 36/36 as a well balanced golf course, and don't want to do anything to upset that equality between the nines.  Many clubs like two par 3's, two par 5's and five par 4's per nine, thinking that their club therefore "fits the mold" of what a golf course is supposed to be.

I know one club that has wrestled for years with the problem of having four rather short par 5's.  But, when outside competitions are held, par on the course is changed to 71 or 70, to present a more challenging test.

In addition, several holes have flip/flopped back and forth between being par 4's and par 5's, and the club is no nearer to making par permanent on each of these holes than they were 50 years ago, yet, others state in no uncertain terms that the course should remain a par 72, but when pressed for an answer as to why, they usually state, because that's the way it's been for the last 50 years.

A natural resistance to change and an unexplained desire for symmetry seem to be the most significant factors that I have seen.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2002, 11:08:28 PM »
Hmmm, Pine Valley with a "massive perception problem of being too easy" if the par was dropped to 69?  Wouldn't that make an already very tough course even tougher?  Pine Valley is already deriving a lot of its difficulty from psychological factors, it seems to me that it would add to its difficulty by making people think it "should" be easy because its only a par 69, just like the goat track down the road from where they grew up.  Besides, Pine Valley only has to worry about its members, and they could be happy that they have the hardest par 69 course in the world :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
My hovercraft is full of eels.

TEPaul

Re: Why do clubs resist changing par for the cours
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2002, 07:11:08 AM »
Doug:

I believe we agree about a perception problem of a "6" fronted score card at PVGC when you say;

"...it seems to me that it would add to its difficulty by making people think it "should" by easy because its par is only 69, like the goat track....."

The latter half of your remark is particularly what I'm referring to as a "perception problem" with a "6" fronted score card.

However, anyone who knows Pine Valley will know that it would be virtually impossible (or let's say very illogical) to make the course a par 69 because, again, the course does not have any hole that is even remotely a candidate to have its par reduced (without being redesigned).

As for how difficult the course would actually play though if somehow par was reduced to 69 from its present 70 if notthing otherwise was done to the course; well, logically the difficulty would be exactly the same as there would not be any reason to believe golfers would shoot higher on the course (in a real number) than they previously had when it was called a par 70.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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