[David Wigler]

Guys,

I am looking for a little golf and food advice in Tucson (After the phenomenal food advice I was given for Myrtle Beach).  My own research seems to indicate that the best golf there is at Stone Canyon, The two courses at the Gallery, Ventana Canyon Mountain and Vistoso.  Is there anything that is superior to those that I am missing?  Are any of the courses at the Hilton El Conquistador worthwhile?  Also anyone know of any eclectic little places where the food knocks your socks off?

Thanks,

Dave

[Steve_ Shaffer]

David

I have not played Stone Canyon but The Gallery North is one of the best in the area. The Gallery South will be the new home of the WGC Match Play, at least until a new Nicklaus course is built nearby. The others you mentioned are the usual suspects. There is nothing superior to the ones you mentioned. The new Preserve at Saddlebrooke was a pleasant surprise. It's not your typical 55+community course.Tom Lehman's new course at Tucson National is an unknown. You might want to take a trip south to Tubac(Red Lawrence) and/or Rio Rico(RTJ) to see some older AZ courses.
For food, my favorite is Hacienda del Sol.

Steve

[Matt Dupre]

Haven't been there for a while, so can't comment on the new golf options - La Paloma is one of the toughest "Nicklaus in a bad mood" courses you'll find, though.

For knock-your-socks-off food it's tough to beat the Ventana Room at the Loew's Ventana.  Spectacular evening view, superior service, and wonderful menu featuring local ingredients.  My wife still raves about the two meals we had there, and that was more than five years ago....

[John Foley]

David,

Vistoso is very good. The other one  I've heard good things about are Arizona National (used to be called Raven at Sabino Springs). I think Ken Kavanaugh re-did Silverbell which is part of the city parks department. Have not played it , but from the drive by it appears appealing, open desert style course.

As for food, if your a Mexican fan, it's pretty tough to go wrong. Terra Cotta & La Fuenta are both very good.
 
You should definetly take some time and go visit the Saguaro National Park. Every time I'm there I take some time to go there for a little hike. It's a very special place to get away from it all.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I forgot about Arizona National, formerly The Raven at Sabino Springs. Very good course but not superior to The Gallery North or, from what I've heard, Stone Canyon. It is now the home course for the UofA golf teams and has in impressive photo gallery of their touring pros.
I also forgot to mention El Charro, an older Mexican restaurant in downtown Tucson.
The Tucson munis are recovering from some recent bad maintenance and/or premature openings from recent renovations. El Rio and Silverbell were worked on by Ken Kavanaugh to good reviews
LaPaloma is an early Nicklaus when he built overly difficult courses. I don't think he was in a "bad mood" but rather that was his design philosophy then.

[Don_Mahaffey]

David,
You seem to know the good courses. Don't miss Ventana Mountain.

If you want a great meal-it will cost you-try Janos' at La Paloma. French trained chef who works with southwest ingredients. Usually has a 7 course sampler that will knock your socks off. Downtown thre is a Mexican restaurant that has been there forever. Specialty is Carne Seca, dried meat-Mexican style. Awesome food, but I can't remember the name. Not high on the elegance factor but worth the trip.

South of Tucson in Green Valley is Canoa Ranch by Brian Curley. I think you'll like it. There's very little Lawrence left at Tubac after a recent renovation. I love Rio Rico. RTJ did the front 9, no one really knows who did the back, but it's OK. Close to Nogales if you have any desire to visit Mexico.

(Steve's post and mine crosed  in cyber space -El Charro is the name of the older mexican place-try it, you'll like it)

[Jason Topp]

In my humble opinion:

Top Tier - views and golf - price no object:

AZ National
Gallery
Ventana Mountain
Stone Canyon (I have not played it)
Tucson Country Club - solid old Billy Bell design.

Vistoso is a good tough, tight course but not on as dramatic of a setting as the others.  I find I feel worn out after playing there.

I recall really enjoying Ventana Canyon but it has been 10 years.


Interesting but not necessarily good:

Heritage Highlands - Arthur Hills, some goofy holes

Starr Pass - used to be beautiful, but I understand that housing has gone up all over the place.  Nonetheless an interesting design you will either love or hate.

Kino Springs - Red Lawrence design on the ranch of one of the movie cowboys.  Nothing real meritorious about the course but a great remote setting in the mountains where you feel a million miles away from civilization.

Tucson National - boring course but site of PGA Tour tounament

On a budget:

Randolph North - straightforward 60's style design

Fred Enke - Quirky city desert course.  I like it, but have played it 40 times.  It is a bit disorienting if you have not played it and play can be slow.  

Rio Rico - 50 miles South of Tucson, good front nine on a 60's style course discussed recently by me if you look up my last 50 posts.

Apache Stronghold - 90 mile drive from Tucson and I have yet to make the trip because of conditioning concerns and logistics.  Nonetheless, close enough that if you want to see a Doak course, you will not get to play one for this price too often.

Stay away from:

1.  Randolph South (Del Uhrich) - Short course that was remodeled extensively with a bunch of humps and hollows to be used for flood control purposes.  I do not think much of the course.

2.  Green Valley courses (Canoa Hills, Canoa Ranch, San Ignacio) - short, tight and on the land left over after housing was determined.

3.  Tubac - Many will disagree with this view, but the area is growing, the price of the course has shot up, and they are in the process of shortening the course and creating short, goofy artificial water holes to create more room for housing.  It is a nice setting, but the golf course has suffered.

4.  El Conquistador (Sunrise and Sunset) - I have not been there in 15 years but recall the courses as pedestrian and expensive.

[Jason Topp]

If you go South to play one of the courses near Nogales, try eating at the Cow Palace - an old saloon/restaurant that has was a cowboy hangout long ago.

[David Wigler]

You guys are studs on the food advice.  I love Mexican food.  The eating sounds fantastic.

Anyone know anything at all about the courses at the Hilton?

[Jason Topp]

David:

What are they called?  I do not recall any courses associated with a Hilton.

[grandwazo]

Just got back from Tucson, here are my recommendations.

Stone Canyon....without a doubt probably the most "beautiful" desert course I have ever played.  

http://www.stonecanyon.com/


Although the housing has increased significantly between my first time visiting and my most recent visit, each hole still seems to exist in their own little world.  Other than the par 3 5th hole with waterfalls running down the hillside on either side which is a little over the top for my tastes, the rest of the golf course is pretty solid.  The 1000 or so saguaro cactus seem to stand sentinel throughout.  The course is very hard to get on, my first time around they had just opened and this time around I was looking at real estate.  

I also played Vistoso, which was pretty non-descript, not what I've seen from Weiskopf in places like Loch Lomond and Troon North.  Also, the housing has increased significantly on this course as well since my last visit and whatever positive memories I had didn't stand up.  I will say that I played with some great guys down from Canada who were renting condo's in the community and thought it was a great value.

I did not play Ventana Canyon this time around, but have played and stayed there numerous times, and recommend it highly.  Two very good courses, a bit on the "resort play" side, but the Mountain course is a lot of fun and the Canyon course has a lot of great holes as well...

http://www.thelodgeatventanacanyon.com/pages/golf.htm

As far as eating goes, Hacienda de Sol is my favorite, set in an old girls boarding school, the food and the wine is spectacular, as is the outdoor fireplace for after dinner drinks.

If you're in to spa food or looking for a spa to stay at, the Miraval resort which is pretty close to both Vistoso and Stone Canyon is great.  You might want to consider this as a place to stay, one of the nicest spots I've ever been.

[Jason Topp]

Anyone know anything at all about the courses at the Hilton?

David - I do not like them.  They are the El Conquistador courses I described above.  

[David Wigler]

David:

What are they called?  I do not recall any courses associated with a Hilton.

The Hilton El Conquistador has two courses.  They are called Canada and The Conquistador.  I think they are both Greg Nash courses (To be honest the only Nash I knew of was Steve and he is in Phoenix).  I have heard nothing else about them.

[David Wigler]

Anyone know anything at all about the courses at the Hilton?

David - I do not like them.  They are the El Conquistador courses I described above.  

We crossed in cyberspace.  Would you play them late in the day with a few beers in your cart or to steal from Bill Madison, will I be dumber for having seen it.

[Bill_McBride]

I enjoyed Tucson CC a lot, old fashioned, easy walk.

Ditto Randolph North.  And Rio Rico was fun.

Here's some very OT non-golf stuff:

Friends who retired to Tucson took us out on Sunday (I was with my wife and another couple).  We went to mass at the Tucson Cathedral which has an almost completely Hispanic congregation, and the music was all mariachi!  It was fantastic, a huge church with beautiful interior.

After church we went to a Mexican restaurant in the barrio, cannot recall the name, but there was a great troupe of mariachis playing there, with the unique aspect that the oldest was late 20's!  It was wonderful to see the old traditional music played by the kids.  And the food was really good.

Otherwise we could have used some better food advice, as nothing was spectacular.

[Don_Mahaffey]

David,
Have the beers and skip the golf-not dumber but you'll wish you'd done something else with your time.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

David, I did like the Gallary course a great deal. I did not think much at alll of the Ventana Canyon courses. The Mountain seemed to be the better of the two by default on views alone.

[Jason Topp]

Anyone know anything at all about the courses at the Hilton?

David - I do not like them.  They are the El Conquistador courses I described above.  

We crossed in cyberspace.  Would you play them late in the day with a few beers in your cart or to steal from Bill Madison, will I be dumber for having seen it.

It's golf, so I would definitely play them with or without beers in the cart.  There is nothing glaringly wrong with them.  I just enjoy other courses that I feel are better, cheaper and more scenic.  

For what it is worth, I have had the most fun on the 9 hole course there.  It is squeezed between housing and short but I have had some fun matches on the course.

[astavrides]

 
You should definetly take some time and go visit the Saguaro National Park. Every time I'm there I take some time to go there for a little hike. It's a very special place to get away from it all.

true, that is a nice place, but every time i go hiking, i realize that i could be hiking around a golf course instead.

[Ryan Farrow]

I tend to stay away from that part of the state. I heard Tucson smells kind of funny. But if you ever travel a little further north I could give you some recommendations.  

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Try Stone Canyon if you can. Solid Moorish effort. Only downside is that Moorish uses the amateurish design gimmick of forcing drivers out of player's hands and then leaving them with much longer approaches. The 2nd there is just one example.

Nonetheless, the course is well done and it would be hard to top the visual component it provides.

On the public side -- besides the CCFAD options -- check out del Lago the Ken Kavanaugh design that's about 8-10 miles south of town. Quite good given the limited budget and never quite as crowded as the others.

[David Kelly]

For really good Mexican food I would recommend Mi Nidito www.minidito.net/main.html   Its not going to impress anyone with its decor but the food is really good.  Expect to wait to get in though.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

More food from roadfood.com, my favorite food website:

Pico de Gallo:
www.roadfood.com/Reviews/Writeup.aspx?ReviewID=1354&RefID=1354

Feig's Deli:
www.roadfood.com/Reviews/Writeup.aspx?ReviewID=3528&RefID=3626

Cafe Poco Casa:
www.roadfood.com/Reviews/Overview.aspx?RefID=598

El Charro:
www.roadfood.com/Reviews/Overview.aspx?RefID=288

Gus Balon's:
www.roadfood.com/Reviews/Overview.aspx?RefID=592

Mi Nidito:
www.roadfood.com/Reviews/Overview.aspx?RefID=606

[Mike Policano]

David, I have been to Tucson several times.  Loews Ventana is a very good place to stay.  Ventana Canyon and Mountain are both good courses.  Arizona National (fka Raven at Sabino Springs) is worthwhile and close by.  

Best restaurant is Janos.  About a 10 minute ride to the Westin La Paloma.  The Dish is highly thought of, dishbistro.com, as is Vivace and the Grill at Hacienda del Sol.

[David Wigler]

Bill - I think we are going to miss each other there but I will have a burrito in your honor.

You guys are the best on the food.  My mouth is drooling just reading your tips.  It sounds like I had the golf pretty well in hand (Still debating Vistoso).

Thanks all and feel free to keep the tips coming.

Dave  

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