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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« on: November 15, 2002, 04:48:43 PM »
I was a lucky boy today, I got to play the course at Yale with Mike Sweeney. The downside of playing with Mike is that he's so tall you must really be careful when looking up at him if the sun is behind his back. Also, his legs are so long that you might feel like Dustin Hoffman trying to keep up with Jon Voight in the street scenes of  "Midnight Cowboy".
Sorry Mike ;) ;D

One of the more noticeable (or should I say unnoticeable) features at Yale is the lack of fairway bunkers. The terrain on some holes is such that using them would seem superflous but even on the relatively benign terrain of others there seems to be no  need to "bunker them up".

Why is this?



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2002, 04:55:46 PM »
Jim, I think you might have answered your own question, lots of movement in the land. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2002, 05:01:13 PM »
Brad,
Then this'll be a short thread.  :)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2002, 05:13:50 PM »
It's some course, what was your impression of the work going on and how might it compare to the work on the classic Banks 9 holer in NW CT?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2002, 05:43:13 PM »
Jim Kennedy,

George Bahto can tell you if any fairway bunkers were removed.  

Perhaps his new book will have some old aerials.

Rumor has it that something spectacular may happen to YALE.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2002, 06:14:11 PM »
Originally, there were was a left hand fairway bunker on the 1st and 2nd - are they still there? I don't recall.

Regardless, as at Fishers, Raynor knew when to leave well enough alone and the thrilling topo at each course is the certainly the star, as Brad says.

Plus, Raynor would have really shattered a new course construction $$$ budget if he tried building a lot of fairway bunkers into Yale's rocky terrain.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Bahto

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2002, 07:53:14 PM »
there were only 2 f'way bunkers on the course - yes ran, that one is still there between 1 & 2

with topo like that who needs fway bunkers - but watch out greenside
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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GeoffreyChilds

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2002, 08:09:47 PM »
Jim

Sorry we were rained out on Mike's birthday on Wednesday and I couldn't get out of work to join you today.

(as Brad and Yoda errr George mentioned) Yale is just so damn dramatic in its topography (especially when firm and fast) that fairway bunkers aren't needed. I can't think of a place where addition of a bunker would help the strategy off the tee.

As a reminder, here is what Yale looked like in 1934



Something spectacular may happen at Yale sometime soon but the only good thing happening lately is that Roger Rulewich was NOT back this year to do any of the planned bunker work on the back nine. Hopefully spectacular next time will be a good thing rather then the spectacular failure of the previous work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2002, 08:33:39 PM »
George,
You're not kidding about that! I was also impressed with how true the greens run once you get on them ;) especially with  its being so late in the season.
Was the area just short of the 17th green ever a bunker?

Brad,
It would be presumptive commentary on my part as I only play Yale irregularly, perhaps one round every other season, but it gets better with every tour, at least for me.

Patrick,
It's a spectacular course, spectacular things should happen there. :) Hope you are right.

Ran,
I wouldn't dispute those who know better but I don't remember seeing that bunker between #'s 1 & 2 and I was on that side of the fairway today. It was probably camouflaged by the fallen oak leaves.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George Bahto

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2002, 09:27:03 PM »
Yale is a major feature of the present book as I feel it is at least on a par with what he did at Lido - CB reiterates this in Scotland's Gift.

I detail the hole by hole info at Yale using quotes from an article written by Charlie Banks in 1929 which describes in detail the original hole and green configurations - he was there, of course during construction.

This was before damage was done in the 1950's in house.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Sweeney

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2002, 04:59:47 AM »
Geoffrey and Jim,

Thanks for not mentioning that it was my 40th birthday, which means that I am no longer a kid, and my sights are shifting to the US Senior Amateur ;)

I got into GCA 18 months ago when I was lucky enough to return from a trip at Sand Hills, and I can only say that I really appreciate what Ran has created here at GCA. I continue to meet great people who happen to play golf. I will also make a plug for Jim Kennedy's Hotchkiss School course. If you are making a trip to or from Boston and New York, make the side trip to Lakeville, CT to get a real feel for a Raynor/Banks/Bahto creation.

Jim,

Also I ran a search for the Seth Raynor Society that we spoke about, and only came up with GCA. Do you have the website?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »
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brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2002, 05:16:00 AM »
So what is the rumor? Hope it might be spelled Gil Hanse or George Bahto :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »
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TEPaul

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2002, 05:55:34 AM »
I've never seen Yale but I believe that many of the best of the older architects felt that if a site's ground (topography) gave you something interesting to work with for golf (gravity golf et al) that bunkering would not really be necessary.

In this way some felt that bunkering was something of a "supplement" to be used in architecture to enhance a site's or hole landform that needed some enhancing for golf and strategy. Maybe this principle did not apply always but much of the time or generally.

I got this from some writing by William Flynn in a pre-construction site analysis of Philadephia C.C. when he mentioned certain parts of the site had enough "natural interest" to forego bunkering or at least go light with it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott Wicker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2002, 06:37:23 AM »
Mike,

If you are referring to the Raynor Society that met at Mountain Lake in April, then you won't find a website.  This is the one that was started by King Oehmig and Doug Stein, both members at Lookout Mountain and principals at my course, Black Creek Club.  There are plans to meet again in the Spring with a specific site to be determined.  If you, or anyone else, is interested in participating, please feel free to reply to me and I can forward information to King and Doug.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott Wicker

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2002, 08:20:35 AM »
Scott Wicker,

It might be a good idea if you post the spring meeting information on this site when it becomes available.

TEPaul,

YALE is a little different from what you might expect.
As I understand it, it's not solely about the natural landform, but, what CBM/SR created through blasting tremendous amounts of solid rock.  How they had the vision to see the final product is what amazes me.  You should get up to YALE, you won't be disappointed, it's brilliant and unique, despite the changes over the years.  A true restoration combined with your maintainance meld would propel it into the top 25.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2002, 12:55:02 PM »
Patrick,
I second that, Yale would easily make top 25. It surely resists scoring. The winning score at one of the CPGA section events held there was 69, or 1 under the par of 70.

TEPaul,
I wonder why more landforms aren't created instead of relying on fairway bunkers. They are cheaper to maintain over the long term than bunkers, add to strategy, create diversity to shot types, can be visually appealing, etc..
From a strategic view, are they an easy way out instead of trying to create more humps, folds, ridges and hollows?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2002, 03:45:30 PM »
"As I understand it, it's not soley about natural landforms, but, what CBM/SR created by tremendous amounts of blasting of solid rock. How they had the vision to see the final product is what amazes me.
Pat Mucci

Pat:

Don't be so amazed and don't be so gullible! The way I heard it, the real story is CBM and SR's vision was entirely different from what Yale turned out to be!

They'd planned to do minimal blasting with the design but somehow SR miscalculated the amount of dynamite and used a 10,000 times larger initial charge than he intended to. So after that initial catclysmic blast that completely rearranged the entire site (and I understand weakened the very foundations of the University itself) they just decided to go with the rearranged landscape and build the best 18 holes they could with what was left!

Even after that MacDonald told Raynor he still wanted numerous fairway bunkers but in frustration Seth said:

"Look Charlie, if you want bunkers in this rockpile, here's the Goddamned shovel--you dig them yourself!"

That's the little known but true story of how and why Yale came to have far fewer bunkers than originally planned!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2002, 04:16:09 PM »
TEPaul,

This also explains why both went deaf shortly after construction.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2002, 04:50:36 PM »
It also explains when and how Harvard eclipsed Yale once and for all beginning in 1926. Almost everyone at Yale University went deaf too in that initial blast that SR so completely miscalculated!

We should start a separate thread about how great courses turned out differently than planned.

Here's another interesting one you probably didn't know either.

In the initial meeting between Steve Wynn and Tom Fazio in Las Vegas (the very same meeting that Tom left a $1 million dollar fee check sitting on Wynn's desk when he took off for the airport and Steve had to call the airport and have the plane rolled back to the gate for one of his henchman to get onboard and hand Tom his $ 1 mil check) to plan for Shadow Creek to discuss how to do Wynn's vision for a natural desert golf course (unlimited budget)---

Steve said to Tom:

"Where're from Tom?"

And Tom said;

"I'm from North Carolina, Steve."

And Steve repeated;

"North Carolina, Hmmm!"

And from that Tom somehow took it to mean that Steve wanted to create North Carolina in the Nevada desert.

And that's how Shadow Creek came to look the way it does!

True story!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »
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GeoffreyChilds

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2002, 04:57:05 PM »
Tom- I've been trying to get you up to see the course at Yale since you couldn't make it to our infamous GCA outing in May of 2001.  I hope you will do so in the spring.  Perhaps Pat will join us along with Mike Sweeney and you can see for yourself what an absolutely UNIQUE golf course it really is. You need to see it for yourself!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2002, 05:07:50 PM »
Geoffrey:

I know I do! Every single person I've ever spoken with about Yale says it's so unique!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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bakerg (Guest)

Re: Yale's fairway bunkers- or lack of
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2002, 11:24:24 AM »
After all the comments about Yale I think I need to go play this for myself and see.  What is the rule for outside play on this course.  I looked up on their website and it seems that you have to be a student or alumni to get on.  Is there a way around this?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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