[cary lichtenstein]

I'm kinda highjacking the new thread about The Golf Club at Devils Tower, the new course in Southern Wyoming near Rapid City, South Dakota.

My suggestion to you owners out there in these remote locations is to offer some kind of national membership together with some kind of air service so that we could join all these clubs kinda like a time share...maybe allowed to play each course one or two times a year in a loop, include:

Sutton Bay
Devils Tower
Dismal River
Ballyneal
Prarie Club
Whatever I missed Golf Club

I somehow think the economics will work.

Would others be interested in this kind of membership? If so, please speak up because I'm sure they will all read this thread

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:

What are you, a Communist or something?  

Since these courses are all under different ownership, and each owner likely believes that his course is better than the rest, any direct "traveling membership" is likely to fail.  However, it's an interesting concept and I suppose the courses could decide to offer a limited number of these annually, and split the proceeds.

Otherwise you just have to get your buddies to each join a different club and then take turns being each other's guest.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom

That's why I'm "joining" Rochelle Ranch in Rawlins, WY- it's public.

Steve

[A_Clay_Man]

Cary,
Air and ground service is all you really want, isn't it? These courses memberships are not that prohibitive, Are they?  Certainly on a cost per round I suspect they feel expensive.

Once Eclipse air has it's production up to speed, I'd say an opportunity would exist for someone to cost effectively capture some of the air components of your suggestion. It is, afterall, their goal to make ordering a plane as commonplace as the way we used to hail cabs.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

You picked a grand place to play. Rochelle Ranch is only going to get better and better. Also -- it's not that remote being a max of four hours by car from greater Denver.

Can't beat the people -- the prices -- or the superb Ken Kavanaugh layout. IMHO, it's no less in qualities than what you see now with Wild Horse.

[Jason Hines]

Cary,

For the courses above I would use the 2-5 hour car ride from the nearest commercial airport to de-tune before you get there.  The remoteness is a gift.

Jason

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:

The other aspect of this boom in remote western golf courses is a subject we don't like to discuss much, but one which will come to bear sooner or later:

There isn't an unlimited market for these kinds of courses.  The ones which aren't hailed as among America's best will struggle to pay off their bills.

How many people are there who are in the market for a membership in a course they will only visit 2-4 times per year?  It's not quite like a second home because there is no way your membership is going to be worth more when you decide you don't want it anymore.

It's great that so many cool properties are being developed today, but there has to be a realistic side to it as well.  Just like the CCFAD's of the 90's, there will be a reckoning process one of these years.

[Gene Greco]

Cary,
What are you, a Communist or something?  

   Is Cary the mayor of North Hills?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

If Las Vegas had been in the Sand Hills, you'd have a zillion great golf courses, but, in Mullen, Nebraska, "four" the hard way means that your group is importing talent.

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

Getting one buddy to join each is not a bad idea, how come I didn't think of that all by myself? Guess I must be a bit dense!!!

I agree that there will be a fall out as the first and second years enthusiam fades and people realize how few rounds they are actually going to play.

That's why I made the above suggestion. To make that trip once a year, invite your buddies or another couple, and play the circuit has to be great fun.

Probably more fun than just being a member of one, going for 2 days and leaving which was what I did when I went to play Sand Hills.

Leaving Sand Hills out of the equation because they are full, all the others might just want to sit down and see if they can come up with a workable plan for those of us who are interested.

Cary

[Jason Hines]

I agree with Tom's thread for the most part, but let me ask you guys this.  Wild Horse was developed with local money and serves as the local community golf course.  Over time, why can or can't this model work elsewhere in the Sand Hills?  IE Other local communities developing "better" courses on their own for minimal investment.  

Some discussion notes, It helps having WH off of I-80, it is a 3:15 minute drive from my front door.  However, there are towns with a larger base in the Sand Hills that could support their local club.  Alliance, Chadron, Scottsbluff-Gering, North Platte etc.  Heck, look at Rochelle Ranch in Rawlins, WY.

I travel quite a bit for my work, so back to Cary's main topic of this thread.  From an airport standpoint, why is Myrtle Beach easier to get to than Nebraska?   (I am no way condoning the gluttony and 5 1/2 rounds of golf at MB as a positive).

Jason

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:

The Wild Horse model can work but it depends on a number of things:

1.  VERY low land costs
2.  VERY low design fees
3.  a bit of real estate around the perimeter which detracts from the golf but pays off some of the capital costs, and
4.  a decent amount of outside traffic, which they get from their proximity to I-80.

I believe Rochelle Ranch exists because a gentleman donated the land and the construction costs personally; that's the only way to break any of the rules above and still come up with an affordable locals-oriented course.

P.S.  Myrtle Beach isn't successful because it's easily accessed; it's successful because it's convenient for northerners in winter and it's close to the beach in summer.

[Jason Hines]

Tom,

Good summation, your 4 points are very prominent here in Nebraska.  I love the private courses/resorts in the sand hills, but we always stop and play good public courses along the way.  

I am not a big fan of houses on courses, even at my club here in Omaha.  In my opinion at WH you hardly notice them at all because you are so hyped up about playing and they are plenty far away from the course.

J.

[Jason Blasberg]

One issue that I have with these places is the short season.  Living on Long Island the Summer is our best weather and never a time I like to travel and lose time at my home club.  So the winter or shoulder seasons is when I prefer to travel, shoulder for me is mid-Oct-Nov. and March-Mid May.

A time when very few of these courses are even open from what I understand.

What course or courses in the Sand Hills region has the longest season?  

I've personally played Prairie Dunes in late March and it was great weather, mid 60s!  

[Gene Greco]

What course or courses in the Sand Hills region has the longest season?  

I've personally played Prairie Dunes in late March and it was great weather, mid 60s!  

Wild Horse has a longer season than Sand Hills due to elevation differential.

Prairie Dunes (Hutchinson, Kansas) is in a different weather pattern. The season is considerably longer which gives membership there a longer playing season by a month or so on each end.

[Jason Hines]

Jason,

Unfortunately, you never know here.  Click onto the snow maps and you will see the whole state is covered in snow during the first week of spring.  I am sure this is why a lot of the remote private clubs offer hunting as well as golf.

http://www.nohrsc.noaa.gov/nsa/

J.

[Bryan Tipton]

Cary:

The links of ND-(Williston, ND), Bully Pulpit-(Medora, ND), and Hawktree (Bismarch,ND) offer a golf package                      (triple challenge) to play all three course for a very reasonable rate.  All the courses are public.

As far as private courses go, that would be like us golf enthusiast that live in the Plains states asking for access to Augusta or any other great course in the USA.

There are more individuals and groups that have the vision to build these courses because the plains states SD,ND,WY,NE are getting people to give back to the states in which they were raised.  50 years ago this was not as common.  It is not uncommon now for one individual to have the resourses to fund some of these great projects.  
 
 

[RJ_Daley]

One potential trend towards seeing the sand hills region develop, that is not on Tom Doak's list, is the commercial-industrial sector growth factor.  If I'm not mistaken, the power/energy costs out there are as low as anywhere in the nation.  If they can get their water management right, I think that the attractiveness for industries experiencing very high locational costs in places like California could begin to see Western Nebraska and Eastern Colorado as a place to expand operations.

If a big industry sector identified the area and committed to expansion and jobs in that region, alot of these remote clubs will look more attractive to a potential new demographic of middle class and management workers.  I'm thinking that it ought to be a no-brainer for high tech outfits, cross country shippers, and manufacturers to consider locations for facilities out there in sand hill country.  As a worker, I'd sure rather live where housing  is still affordable, environment is clean, and recreation is available.  The golf season is essentially from march 1 to Nov 30.  Oh sure, last week they got something like a foot to 18" of snow, but it is a warm dry snow...

[Bryan Tipton]

RJ:


If development was to increase the price of land and housing costs would be the first to rise.  The availability of homes already built would be short lived with the small populations that are present.  

If you were to go today I would agree that one would get a good deal.  

[Jason Blasberg]

The golf season is essentially from march 1 to Nov 30.  Oh sure, last week they got something like a foot to 18" of snow, but it is a warm dry snow...

RJ:

I think that could be said of the Kansas sand hills which is more like Oklahoma weather than Nebraska, but I never really got the impression that Mullen or Gothenburg had that long a season.  

     

[mike_beene]

From a weather standpoint,Nebraska makes much more sense for Texas,Arizona etc.,just like Colorado and Santa Fe.Playing golf here in August is awful.

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:

There are good golf days at Ballyneal in March and November, just not a long string of them.  If you were a local member you'd get in a lot of rounds, but if you're coming from 300 miles away the predictable season is more like late April through October.

[Gene Greco]

    FYI:

    Sand Hills is only open June through September.

[John Kirk]

Cary:

The other aspect of this boom in remote western golf courses is a subject we don't like to discuss much, but one which will come to bear sooner or later:

There isn't an unlimited market for these kinds of courses.  The ones which aren't hailed as among America's best will struggle to pay off their bills.

How many people are there who are in the market for a membership in a course they will only visit 2-4 times per year?  It's not quite like a second home because there is no way your membership is going to be worth more when you decide you don't want it anymore.

It's great that so many cool properties are being developed today, but there has to be a realistic side to it as well.  Just like the CCFAD's of the 90's, there will be a reckoning process one of these years.

I agree with this.

I enjoy playing new courses, but not as much as I enjoy playing my favorite home course with good friends.  As a member of Ballyneal, I have a vested interest to help Rupert O'Neal and our early members build a great membership.  It's a wonderful opportunity.

Also, these new sand hills clubs are several driving hours apart from one another.  I don't want to do a lot of driving once I get there, just hang out and play golf.

Once Ballyneal settles in, I'd guess we'll open a week or two before Sand Hills, but stay open later for hunting season.

[RJ_Daley]

Gene, I'll never forget that opening day a few years ago - 99* and some fellow taking a mandatory 8 count on the 10th fairway, his 27th hole of the day in that heat.

I imagine that Dismal River and Valentine, when they are open, will have the relatively shorter season that Wild Horse, as they are all more up north in the real sand hill micro climate.  I'm not sure what the season is at Bayside in Ogallala.  

I have seen articles in Golf Course Management on the winter maintenance program at Prairie Dunes in KS, and I think they try to  play sporadically through out the winter there, mostly on temp greens.

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