[Mark Arata]

Front page article in the local paper today.....dont know if they will allow it, it is a great golf course, and the property surrounding it is the highest of the high end in this town.....interesting. Since the renovation, it is just a beautiful course to play, great green sites, and the routing on the property is well thought out. Would be a shame if they ruined it for flood control.

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-5/1142320862212390.xml

[Gene Greco]

Eminent domain???

[Chris Moore]

Also being a local, I was appalled when I read the story this morning.  There is so little golf course land available down here in the swamp in the first place.  Imagine the club's position of having to say no to the hundreds of thousands of non-members when the club is asked to sacrifice itself for the greater good.  Untenable.  

I heard that the renovation there was to restore Seth Raynor's original design.  Any truth to that?

[mike_malone]

 Jim Nagle from Forse Design posts here.  I believe they did the restoration work there. Ron Forse presented some visuals and commentary at our winter gathering a few years ago.

[John Kavanaugh]

It seems like a perfect use of land to me....If you are talking about people losing their homes and/or life or a golf course being inconvenienced now and then you gotta go with the golf course.  It is for needs like this that eminent domain exists.  I'm sure the owners of the course can be fairly compensated.

[Mark Arata]

If I am not mistaken, the Raynor design was the New Orleans Country Club, which is right next door to it, the designer listed for Metairie is someone named Jack Daray. A lot of the green sites feel like Raynor.......

I dont know which way this one will go, there is the obvious loss of life and property vs. the loss of a golf course, but this is New Orleans, and a lot of the movers and shakers of this area live in the neighborhood surrounding the golf course and are members there....it would be very interesting to be a fly on the wall when the backroom discussions are taking place on this.

I am supposed to go play there next week, my understanding is that the course is in very good shape, but the clubhouse has been severely damaged.

[mike_malone]

 A check of the Forse Design website did not show any evidence of work done in New Orleans. It could be that I have lost my mind and am imagining architectural presentations that never happened.

[wsmorrison]

You have lost your mind, Mike.  But in this particular instance, by the random walk theory and coincidence of large numbers, you are correct.  

Forse Design did an extensive restoration of Metarie and it came out very well according to them and the vast collection of pictures I saw.  I think the course was in play not that long after the hurricane.  

Too bad they just don't move the whole city somewhere else, but if they are going to reclaim the storm ravaged land and return the population (I don't think Houston wants them) something has to be done to minimize the risk of another catastrophe.  If a golf course is sacrificed, there are worse reasons to claim the property.  

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

Sorry, I just read your post.  Metarie was a Raynor course, at least I am 95% sure.  The photos sure looked like it and that is what Ron and Jim said.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Wayne,

I recall Raynor designed Metairie, and a black man called Joe Bartholomew supervised construction of the course. An interesting historical tidbit, I think, considering the race situation of the time (early 1920s, or thereabouts).

[Mark Arata]

I am sure that you are both correct, it sure looks a lot like the other Raynor courses I have played, but when I looked up the course on the net they had Jack Daray listed as the designer.

I got to play it a twice before the hurricane and it was just a great place to play, I hope they are able to come up with another way to protect the flood areas other than this proposal. I agree that there would be no question as to what must be done if that was the only option to save life and property.

[Tom Ferrell]

Yes, Metairie Country Club was a Raynor design with Joe Bartholomew as supervisor.  He supposedly did a full set of plasticine models (from last week's thread) that still exist, although no one can locate them.  Bartholomew gained Raynor's praise and high recommendation and went on to design a number of courses in Louisiana.

Jim Nagle did in fact lead the restoration effort for Ron Forse.  I'm going out to Columbine Country Club (Denver) in about an hour to view the work he's leading there.  At 50, Columbine (Henry Hughes) is due for an upgrade, and it sounds like it's getting one.  I'm also going to be in New Orleans next week and hope to get out to Metairie to see the work there.  I'm taking this article to Jim, and I'll post any pertinent response.

TOM

[TEPaul]

Ron Forse and Jim Nagle have always been favorite architects of mine and I think in the last couple of years they have been coming on like gang-busters. I always felt they had great talent but doing a Raynor restoration that doubles as a hurricane retention pond?!?!

Now, that is REAL talent!

By the way, what is a "hurricane retention pond"? Very, very unfortunately it looked after Katrina that the entire city of New Orleans was a "hurricane retention pond", so what do they need Metaire for?

[Tom Roewer]

Jeff    Im a little confused.  I did some research a while ago on joe bartholomew and he was a very interesting man.  In a thread from The African American Registry they mention that H.T. Cottam a Metairie member..." persuaded the club to send Bartholomew to New York to obtain knowledge and experience in golf course architecture."  This is where Raynor comes into the picture.  However this article continues to say ..."Early in 1922 , Bartholomew returned to New Orleans and began construction of Metairie's new course.  So covetous of his design was he that he often worked through the night to protect the project from those who might steal his ideas."  So my question is, who really designed Metairie, Raynor or Bartholomew or both?  It is ironic that Joe Bartholomew was never allowed to play the golf courses that he built and or designed.   That is tragic enough so I hope that Metairie C.C. can continueas it seems inevitable that the city course that bears his name is no longer.    

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Seth Raynor did the original work on Metairie CC. Mark I am going to make a few calls on this. They are going to build a new clubhouse but the course is ok for the most part. I find this hard to believe. I was there last week.

[john_stiles]

Have not noticed any posting by George Bahto yet.
Must be working on finishing his book on Raynor.

Have distinct impression from George that he visited MCC, many years ago now, and found that it was Raynor.

Interestingly enough, from MCC website....

"  Since its inception in 1922, Metairie Country Club has served its members as a haven of leisurely social elegance. Opened exclusively as a golf club, Metairie Country Club achieved instant fame due to its innovative course design. At the time, every hole was a replica of a hole from a Scottish or American course.  "

I visited their web site when this new topic was started and noticed the part about 'every hole was a replica'.

[JNagle]

Ron and I have been informed of the plans for the large retention pond called Metairie C.C.  We have seen the plans but have not had the time to sit and discuss the issue together.

Metairie was definately a Raynor course with Bartholemew implementing the construction.  He even spent a couple of months with Raynor developing the plans and models for the course.   When doing the restoration (which Ron was in the lead - hope I did not mislead you Tom) we used a foggy photo from the 30's and a list, that did not correspond to specific holes, of the holes and courses Raynor patterned his course after.

HOLE #   NAME
1-   SOUTH BEND
2-   LONG
3-   SHINNECOCK
4-   PUNCHBOWL
5-   POND
6-   NARROWS
7-   EDEN
8-   SPECTACLES
9-   ROAD
10-   THE NATIONAL
11-   PRINCIPLE’S NOSE
12-   REDAN
13-   (SHORT) ROAD (ETTE)
14-   (DO0UBLE) PLATEAU
15-   NASSAU
16-   OAKS
17-   SHORT
18-   HOME   

The courses included St. Andrews, Nassua, Piping Rock, Shinnecock and the National.

I will attempt to reduce the file sizes of a couple aerials to get them posted.  

The course over the years as with all courses was changed for the worse.  Plateaued greens were flattened and bunkers eliminated.  

The course was under about 8-9 feet of water and many of the surrounding homes were destroyed.

Jim

[Jeff_Mingay]

Joe Bartholomew is a fascinating story in the history of golf architecture.

George Bahto: Do you have any additional info. on the man? Just curious.

Anyone else?

[Tom Roewer]

JEFF    I have been trying to research Joe Bartholomew for a time and just keep getting snippets.   The Golf Channel barely mentions him in their History of Golf : Part Eight, and the most info so far comes from The African American Registry article to commemorate his birthday, August 1.  I've tried to get more from Dillard University or Xavier University as it is mentioned thta he was a generous contributor to both.  It is mentioned in one article that he not only built and/or designed City Park 1 and 2 as well as Ponchartrain Park plus Metairie but also others in Louisiana and one in Mississippi.  He is a  very interesting character in Golf Architecture History indeed.  I would love to get any and all information on him as possible.   thanks  

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

I'll need some help to post the photos you sent me.  Craig will be able to help me on Sunday and then we'll get them on here.  I'm having trouble uploading .html files onto my photo site.  Sorry 'bout that.

[TEPaul]

""When doing the restoration (which Ron was in the lead - hope I did not mislead you Tom) we used a foggy photo from the 30's and a list, that did not correspond to specific holes, of the holes and courses Raynor patterned his course after."

Jim:

Maybe you were speaking to Tom Ferrel but nevertheless, I have to ask you----you said Ron was in the lead at Metaire?

You actually LET Ron take THE LEAD?

What the hell has gotten into you man? You're getting a bit reckless and risky letting Ron take the lead, don't you think?

Do everyone a favor and DO NOT let Ron take THE LEAD in anything again. That man doesn't even know who he is. Every time he calls me he's either an Italian, a German, a Pennsylvania Dutch guy who works for some tractor factory or whatever.

If you don't keep him on a short leash he's going to go and do something insane like restore a perfectly good Seth Raynor golf course into a hurricane retention basin or something!!

Actually, that might be kinda cool too.

[George_Bahto]

Jeff - (and you asked ME for info -  )

so....................

Joe Bartholomew is certainly an interesting story.

1881-1971 - a devout Catholic - modest, mild mannered guy who seldom spoke of his accomplishments.

Struck out on his own, age 12 - had just an 8th grade education and actually had a fair amount of money in the end.

He worked at the Audubon Golf course, a self taught player, good player and apparently a bit of a hustler - shot a 62 at Audubon once.

Great golfer Fred McLeod landed the job as pro at that course and Joe played well-matched in numerous matches against and with visiting golfers of reputation. Joe also played against Hogan and Sarazen

............   on to his career (I’ll be brief - I’ve a lot on this very interesting guy):

So he gets sent to Long Island by a wealthy Metairie member, H T Cottam. (to “Raynor’s Golf Course Academy” - this was a question asked of me -  Duh .... I’m assuming that means he was working on the construction crews

after learning the trade under SR he was put in charge of construction on the Metairie project. There was also a private estate course nearby that  belonging to an NGLA founder that Raynor designed and Joe built. The member also had an estate in SHampton.

Joe stayed there as super but never played the course (ethnics).

He went on to built a number of 9 holes and munis in the area, City Park No.2 course, Pontchartrain Park course, and a number of course in LA as well as another in Mississippi - never was allowed to play them either

He used the plasticene model concept he learned from Raynor

Later he built a 7-hole course for Afro-Americans on property he owned

they renamed the newly reconditioned Pontchartrain in his name in 1979 and I think there is a statue of him someplace in New Orleans

there is a lot more but don’t want to bore you - hah

Anyhow this guy is a great story - I tried to follow up closely after he went out on his own to see if he continued with the “famous hole” concept - which wold have made him a CBM protege

[Mark Bourgeois]

Today's Times-Pic has an update.  Reading between the lines, it seems the club will agree, provided the parish provides financial compensation if the course is used to handle flood water. Here's the link:

http://tinyurl.com/rjq6m

My question is: does anyone know how well golf courses stand up to use as flood buffers? How much long-term damage are we talking? Perhaps a poster is familiar with such courses located in flood plains of the Missouri / Upper Mississippi Rivers....

If, as other posters have noted, the (man-made) levee failures that flooded the course for several weeks with brackish water didn't harm the course irreparably, then couldn't it be expected to come through in reasonable shape if it floods for a shorter period of time with fresh water?

Wasn't Katrina a "worst-case survival test"? Wouldn't fresh-water flood damage would be lower, especially considering the course likely will be flooded for a shorter period of time than in Katrina?

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