[TEPaul]

Has anyone ever seen an actual plasticine hole model or know where any may be? I saw a few photos of some of NGLA.

There is a whole course topographical model of NGLA hanging in the maintenance building but I don't know enough about them to know if it's plasticine.

It seems like plasticine models were first used pretty early, maybe around the time comprehensive architectural drawings were first used.

[Steve Curry]

Here are pictures ofthe NGLA model, I assumed it was placticine but am not sure...

[ForkaB]

Tom

Per Wikipedia......

"Plasticine was formulated by art teacher William Harbutt of Bathampton, near Bath, England in 1897."

This is all scarily close to the time and place that William Morris (or was it Old Tom Morris?) tapped Willie Park Jr. on the shoulder and told him to go forth and multiply Arts and Crafts Movement golf courses.

I don't think you really want an answer to your question.....

[paul cowley]

Tom...do we have any evidence that models were created to study beforehand and used as a construction aid?....most designers create 3D models of ideas in the dirt as a communication aid but it seems to me that trying to work from a preconceived model would be cumbersome at best.

Or were they just after the fact tokens of interest?

[ForkaB]

Have any architects out there had Richard Dreyfuss/Close Encounters sorts of moments on their kitchen tabels?

[TEPaul]

Paul:

That's a good question. Seems like plasticine models were after the fact creations of built holes. However, the continuing criticism of the use of plasticine hole models as a design or construction technique seems to be the obvious problems that they just didn't fit well elsewhere.

Has anyone actually seen an individual plasticine hole model?

[Phil_the_Author]

Paul,

You asked, "Tom...do we have any evidence that models were created to study beforehand and used as a construction aid?....most designers create 3D models of ideas in the dirt as a communication aid but it seems to me that trying to work from a preconceived model would be cumbersome at best... Or were they just after the fact tokens of interest?"

Tilly used plasticine models as a means of defining his vision for both hole & green as an aid before construction. A fine example of this can be found in his letters to 5 Farms.

In his ciontract documents for the project he wrote, "In addition to the detailed plan of the courses, I agree to provide working models or cross-section drawings, with elevations, for the construction of the Greens, for the 18 holes first to be constructed; and afterwards for the second 18 holes..."

Note, the models were for THE CONSTRUCTION of BOTH holes & GREENS & prior to construction

One of the drawbacks of this method can be seen in the telegram that he sent the club that one of his visits would be postponed "until next week. Arrive Tuesday morning… badly sprained wrist will prevent my manipulating Plasticene for models until that time…"

That these models provided the needed information is also seen from another letter where, in discussing the project, he wrote, "I find that he [Robert Scott] has followed my directions faithfully and well…”

Tom Paul, regarding the models for NGLA, there was a series of articles written as it was being built published in Golf Illustrated month-by-month. These showed the individual holes of the new course by pictures of the models.

I will look it up & give you the references...

[Eric Franzen]

Imagine how many of the GCA-patrons marriages that would be wrecked if they started to sell official full size replicas of the pictured plasticine model of NGLA.

- Honey, you know the money that we saved for our vacation. Well, I bought something nice on Ebay that we both will enjoy for many years.

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul, regarding the models for NGLA, there was a series of articles written as it was being built published in Golf Illustrated month-by-month. These showed the individual holes of the new course by pictures of the models."

Phil:

Those are the very ones I've been looking at.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Since you've been looking at the pictures, I have a vague recollection that the photos were of individual hole models. Is this just bad memory on my part? Or did they just photograph the large model that you showed above from different angles to give this impression?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Since you've been looking at the pictures, I have a vague recollection that the photos were of individual hole models."

Phil:

I'd say almost definitely. They are not just parts of that whole course model in the photo above that hangs in the maintenace building. Maybe GeorgeB knows when that whole course model was made but don't forget those photos in Golf Illustrated appeared in the May 1914 edition.

[Eric Franzen]

"Tom,
Since you've been looking at the pictures, I have a vague recollection that the photos were of individual hole models."

Phil:

I'd say almost definitely. They are not just parts of that whole course model in the photo above that hangs in the maintenace building. Maybe GeorgeB knows when that whole course model was made but don't forget those photos in Golf Illustrated appeared in the May 1914 edition.

http://tinyurl.com/eautt - direct link to Golf Illustrated May 1914 (courtesy of the USGA archive).

[Steve Curry]

From Tillies letter to Berkshire Hills 1925

"   I can proceed with the staking of the various holes, the preparation of detailed plans, specifications and necessary working models for greens (although many will be quite natural) whenever you advise me to do so."

Steve

[George Pazin]

Forrest talks a bit about making models in his feature interview:

Forrest Richardson Feature Interview

Maybe he'll see this and chime in.

I had an idea for a silly little invention awhile ago and bought some polymer clay to try to build it. It's interesting stuff, and would probably work well for this type of thing. It's basically a pliable clay that is in reality plastic, and when it's baked at a temp of about 300, it hardens. People use it to make all sorts of things.

[TEPaul]

Come on fellas----some of you are supposed to be the world's greatest golf architecture researchers. Get on the stick here and don't fink out on me at this point. Find me an old "Golden Age" plasticine golf hole model and I want you to find it for me RIGHT NOW!!!!

What the hell was plasticine anyhow? Do you think maybe it was cancer causing?

[Michael Hayes]

Mr. Colt however, looked upon this as a challenge and said he had never before been asked to design a golf course 5,000 miles away on a piece of land he had never seen, and probably never would. He offered to do the job for nothing, but was eventually persuaded to accept 50 guineas as a token. He produced a fine plasticine model to scale, and on his return to Trinidad, Mr. de Nobriga and many other dedicated members set about following Mr Colt's design to produce the eighteen hole course at Maraval, which eventually gave so much pleasure to golfers for nearly 40 years. The original construction, needless to say, was supervised throughout by the indispensable Roy Rudder, who by this time had been the Club Professional for many years.

posted from the St. Andrews golf club, Trindad & Tabago
http://www.golftrinidad.com/history.htm

Ross made plasticine models of the greens to show machine operators the correct contours to re-construct. Not all of the courses were destroyed. The runways had been located on the higher central ground, so Ross had the unscathed coastal area to create a masterpiece

posted from http://www.worldgolf.com/course-reviews/scotland/turnberry-resort.htm

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Georgie,
Forrest is really good at playing with Playdough.

Tom,
Give me one good reason why I should post a picture of an H. Chandler Egan green from Seattle Municiple GC?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

[Marty Bonnar]

I'm hoping Phillips will post some pics of his splendid 'blow-out' creation...

Come on, Brian!

FBD.

[RJ_Daley]

I forgethow this goes exactly, but American Park Builders, either starting under Langford, and continuing under Bendelow, or just under Bendelow, would use plasticine models, as mentioned in C&W, I think.  

Also, our own Pete Galea did a most impressive variation of such, using plaster rather that plasticine to create a course model to excellent scale and reality in a GCA contest we had several years ago.  When I visited Pete and was invited into his basement to see his scale model of the course design, I was completely embarrassed that I won the darn contest because Pete's model was a light year ahead of my mere drawings, particularly considering his dedicated work to produce the model.  Perhaps Pete will see this and post a photo of it, as I know he has photos of it.

[TEPaul]

TommyN:

Do you think that THING those two men are looking at in that box they're holding is dead or alive or just napping?

To me it looks suspiciously like it's trying to be a Tillinghast Late Afternoon Reverse Reef Hole once Tillie sucks the very last drop out of his flask and gets both his hands firmly around its neck.

Furthermore, if that incautious idiot with the black hat on the left gets his finger even a millimeter of an inch closer to what looks to be that THING's asshole that idiot is likely to lose his entire hand all the way up to his elbow!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
I think its a good idea to throw caution into the wind when approaching Plasticine. A really good idea.

The model is actually of a photo from Golfdom, showing the green of Seattle Municiple Golf Course. (H. Chandler Egan)

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Take a good look at the 12th green.
And the 6th green.

The question is, did CBM build the 12th as depicted in the plasticine model ?

Or did he feel that it mirrored the nearby 6th to closely, and thus he departed from his intentions as manifested in the plasticine model ?

Also, the centerline bunker configuration at # 8 appears continuous, right up into and meshing with the right side bunkers.

Steve Curry, George Bahto &  Bill Salinetti

Is there a date that is inscribed in the plasticine model ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The plasticine model preceeds the road leading to the clubhouse that changed the 14th hole, YET, it looks like there's some type of facility with a road leading to it between the 1st and 18th holes.

Is that feature labeled ?

[George_Bahto]

Tom Paul:

The big NGLA model down in the “barn,” in my opinion was more conceptual than “as-built.”

There are too many things on it that, I do not think, hit the ground.

At one time it hung in the clubhouse behind the Macdonald statue.

The large one they made for Lido was to show the founders and crews the overall scale of the project - this conceptual, again.

In the history of Mountain Lake it states Raynor sent plastiscene model of green to get OK - this instead of going down there in person.

Recent writings have emerged at Fishers Island that they were waiting for model of green to be sent to them by Raynor.

I think most of the models were to show the ownership what they intended to do .... and................. were also to leave with the construction crews conveying what the architect wanted ........ sort of: “look guys, rough the green out, I’ll be back and well do the details then.”

I heard the model of the greens for NGLA were in the basement and were thrown out in the early ‘50's during a “clean-out-the cellar.”  Could you imagine??

I heard models were once in the basement at Yale also.

The Lido was a forerunner to construction.

So perhaps it was both; concept and also as-built.

Also I doubt if they were very durable.

When I built Stonebridge, I had a difficult time at first conveying my thoughts to the shaper about a certain green  .........  I took him to National - then built a large clay model of the of the green I was after ....  He had been fooling with that green for 3 days before that ........ he then “got it” and it was done in no time.

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