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TEPaul

Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« on: February 16, 2006, 05:44:46 PM »
I think there's been a thread on this before on here but I can't find it.

When did architectural drawings first appear in golf course architecture, and who was the first architect(s) to really use them for design and construction purposes?

In their bio on Harry Colt, C&W mention that Colt was the first to use a drawingboard. Do you think that implies he was the first to use architectural drawings?

Who can actually come up with examples of the first architectural drawings to be used in golf architecture?

TEPaul

Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2006, 07:45:00 AM »
This is embarrassing. I'm bragging to some important people who may have an interest in this question that if I put the question on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com some of the accomplished researchers on here should come up with some documented answers. And then no one answers?!

This is a pretty important question in the evolution of golf course design. When did architectural drawings for design and construction purposes first appear in golf course architecture, and who were the first to do them or use them?

Where are our expert researchers? Tom MacWood, I'd have thought you'd at least give this one a shot.

I'll throw one possibility out there. How about Mackenzie's routing map of Alwoodley in 1907? It is a bit "stickish" but it does have some individual green shapes and bunkering on it. Can anyone document an architectural drawing earlier than that?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 07:50:05 AM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2006, 07:51:05 AM »
When you say architectural drawings, do you mean more than just hole sketches?  For instance, the Colt drawing of Pine Valley that we were able to get for the club was more conceptual than a real architectural plan.  

I would guess that Ross must have been pretty early because he drew a number of courses without having been there and his team must have relied on detailed drawings at some point.

The earliest Flynn drawing we have is 1920.  What about Macdonald's drawing for NGLA?  I'm sure Colt and Park must have been drawing pretty early.  Maybe Park, Jr. as his work was some of the earliest architecture.  Did he draw and/or work in the field?

TEPaul

Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2006, 08:00:45 AM »
Wayne:

The Colt PVGC drawings are from mid-1913. The Colt PVGC hole by hole booklet is basically the same as the Colt course drawing but a bit more detailed. MacKenzie's Alwoodley is six years earlier. C&W imply that Colt was the first architect to draw (they say to use a drawing-board but by that I assume they mean the first to make architectural drawings). If Colt made drawings that were earlier than Mackenzie's Alwoodley then what was the course or courses? Park's Sunningdale or Huntercombe both of which he spent so much time on around 1900 would be good candidates too. Does anyone know anything about architectural drawings from the Heathland's Sunningdale or Huntercombe or if any drawings ever existed on those two early ones?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 08:02:02 AM by TEPaul »

Steve_Lovett

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Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2006, 08:25:59 AM »
I have a copy of a Ross drawing circa 1915+/- of St Augustine Links hanging in my studio at home...  It was posted on this site a couple of years ago...

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2006, 11:52:00 AM »
Tom — Look at one of your many dog-eared copies of Routing the Golf Course...

Following A. Martin’s first-ever map of a golf links, two other early maps were made. In 1836, William Chalmers drafted the links and, interestingly, used within the title “Golfing Course” to describe the plan. In 1879, the firm of Little and Boothby drafted the links and the immediate area. Both the Chalmers map and the 1879 update did not show centerlines of holes, only the features and landmarks that dotted the links and its ground.

Centerlines, now a staple of routing plans, first appeared on a map of The New Course in 1894. The New Course was laid out by Tom Morris to a design by W. Hall Blyth, an Edinburgh civil engineer. The costs of design and construction were met by the Royal & Ancient Golf Club. This significant map (Figure 16-5), which also shows features of The Old Course, was lost for many years until it was rescued in 1976 by Walter Woods, an alert greenkeeper.”We had piled a bunch of wood and rubbish on the beech below the Jubilee Course to set a huge bonfire for an annual charity when there on top of the pile I noticed a four-foot long cardboard tube,” related Woods. “My assistant, David Kilgour, retrieved it and took it back to the office.” Woods and Kilgour never gave the discovery much thought as the events that night had them preoccupied. Above Woods’ desk on some dusty rafters the tube sat for nearly twenty years. Just before his retirement Woods rediscovered the tube and cut it apart with the help of his mechanic. Woods reported the find, the R & A deciding that it rightfully belonged to the Links Trust. In 1996 Woods presented it for hanging in the new clubhouse which overlooks both the New and Old Courses.

A second map of the New Course also includes the Old Course. This map, drawn by Blyth two years later, in 1896, is part of the collection of the Royal & Ancient Golf Club. It, along with the 1829, 1836, and 1879 maps, hang in the Clubhouse of the Royal & Ancient Golf Club.


I would conclude that Blyth was the first to draft a course before being built. At least to a plan which has endured, and that we can attest existed.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 11:53:26 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

wsmorrison

Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2006, 02:17:53 PM »
I have a stick routing of Agawam Hunt circa 1908, that's the oldest routing on a topo I've seen.

TEPaul

Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2006, 06:46:59 AM »
Forrest:

Thanks so much for that most interesting info. I don't know how I missed it until today. Obviously I'm looking for drawings for design and construction but "after the fact" drawings that early are wonderful to know about too.  I doubt I need to tell YOU why I'm asking!  ;)

John Foley

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Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2006, 08:31:54 AM »
Wayne,

What did CB Mac draw at NGLA? I've got a copy of EJ Raisz map from the 30's I think, but I was unaware of anything that CB did.
Integrity in the moment of choice

wsmorrison

Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2006, 09:01:33 AM »
John,

The Raisz map is also in the back of Macdonald's book, Scotland's Gift Golf.  There is a drawing in the pro shop up the stairs that is an earlier depiction of the course.  I'm not sure the time frame or artist.

I know George Bahto borrowed some material from a descendent of the first green keeper at NGLA.  Included in that collection is an early routing map shown in George's book The Evangelist of Golf.  I think there's more down at the garage where this descendent works in Southampton.  

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2006, 09:23:12 AM »
Tom — The New Course map was done in advance of building The New Course. As far as I know it is the first plan of a golf course for construction purposes...at least the first we know of.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 09:23:53 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2006, 09:31:43 AM »
Forrest:

Thanks for that. It would be apropos if the first constructions drawings were for a course at St Andrews. Does anyone know if construction drawings of any kind were ever done for or by Willie Park Jr at Sunningdale Old or Huntercombe?

John Foley

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Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2006, 09:56:57 AM »
Wayne - thanks. When I'm back home I'll check Georges book. I did not know if it was individual hole drawings ala Crump at PV or a simple routing plan such as Mac's at Cypress.
Integrity in the moment of choice

TEPaul

Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2006, 10:06:22 AM »
Macdonald and Raynor did no individual hole drawings for NGLA and unfortunately I don't believe that routing plan had any preconstruction contour lines on it. I sure wish it did as that would say a whole lot. I think they just put some contour lines on it as they thought they needed them as they built.

Jim Thompson

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Re:Architectural drawings---when did they first appear?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2006, 10:11:16 AM »
Not trying to be too smart with this but, I'd bet the origin comes in pretty close proximity to the introduction of either placemats or beverage napkins in the Fife region.

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson