[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick,
Your over-glamorizing a very mediocre golf hole and a golf course that is sub-standard when compared to the architectect's other bodies of work, which I might add isn't what the enthusiast would call overly provocative.

Tommy,

Jordan said it was a bad hole, and it isn't, it's a good little par 4 with plenty of options.

As to the golf course, could it have been better ?  Sure, and we agree that the mounding is excessive, but there's more to the story than just the architecture.  There were funding and ownership problems from the get go.

I wonder though, if the high containment mounds to the north on # 7 weren't there, would the oblique dunes have encroached and covered over the holes ?

The pictures of # 7 that were posted on this site a year or two ago looked very good, in that the hole had aged well with time and Mother Nature's assistance.

I still feel that holes 2-6 are terrific.

And, I always like skyline greens, ala # 11.

The golf course plays better than it looks when you play 7-18

[Jordan Wall]

#11 is a different story.  The hole was redone slightly from how Rees had it but what was done made it kind of a weird hole,, whether it was a skyline green or not.  It is not very interesting.


The thing with number 11 is that even though it is the shortest hole on the course there are absolutely no bunkers on it and if you miss the green it is pretty much an easy up and in from anywhere.  Even the huge pit to the left which was recently put there makes for a pretty simple little chip.  The green is OK, the tiers are pretty boring.  Not a hole I like either, same for a few holes on the course.

[Matt MacIver]

Re: #2, after reading all this I would be very interested in knowing, for those that have played it, what club you hit off the tee?  

What's a guy thinking on the box? "It's early in the round....", "am I loose yet....", "how's the driver swinging", "I just birdied (or bogeyed) the 1st".  

IF this is a risk-reward hole, does the fact that it's the second hole make it any more interesting?

[Jordan Wall]

I hit driver, but I hit driver on every hole really (say for the par-3's).

I had absolutely no problem going to the right of the water.  After a bogey on the first I came and parred this hole so I was in a little bit better mood to say the least.

My playing partner hit an iron off the tee, then a 9-iron in and ended up bogeying the hole.

Honestly though, I think most players would hit irons off the tee and a short iron/wedge to the green.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

#11 is a different story.  The hole was redone slightly from how Rees had it but what was done made it kind of a weird hole,, whether it was a skyline green or not.  It is not very interesting.

Jordan, how was it redone ?

The thing with number 11 is that even though it is the shortest hole on the course there are absolutely no bunkers on it and if you miss the green it is pretty much an easy up and in from anywhere.  Even the huge pit to the left which was recently put there makes for a pretty simple little chip.

How do you know it was recently put there ?
When was it put there ?

The green is OK, the tiers are pretty boring.  

How can multiple tiers be boring ?

How would you compare that green to the 13th and 14th greens at Pacific Dunes ?

Please address each question with specifics and not vague generalizations.

Not a hole I like either, same for a few holes on the course.

[Jordan Wall]

#11 is a different story.  The hole was redone slightly from how Rees had it but what was done made it kind of a weird hole,, whether it was a skyline green or not.  It is not very interesting.

Jordan, how was it redone ?

The hole originally had two bunkers on the left side of the green.  My guess is they were probably like 7 or 8 feet deep, appropriate for the shortest hole on the course (and plus that is how deep the pit is).  Recently a new owner (I dont know how recently, sorry, that is just what I was told by a worker) started taking away some bunkers, making them pits, and even to the right of the second hole this happened.  Surely I know this is true because the diagram of the hole on the website for Sandpines above hole #11 shows two bunkers to the left of the green.[/color]

The thing with number 11 is that even though it is the shortest hole on the course there are absolutely no bunkers on it and if you miss the green it is pretty much an easy up and in from anywhere.  Even the huge pit to the left which was recently put there makes for a pretty simple little chip.

How do you know it was recently put there ?
When was it put there ?

Sorry but I cant say I know exactly when, I just know a new owner put them there, and the worker tells me he did this to make the course easier  Maybe easier, maybe not, but I think bunkers would have been better.[/color]

The green is OK, the tiers are pretty boring.  

How can multiple tiers be boring ?

How would you compare that green to the 13th and 14th greens at Pacific Dunes ?

Please address each question with specifics and not vague generalizations.

Well, there are three tiers, pretty small, and besides the tiers the green is completely flat.  Maybe the tiers are used to spin a ball back or something due to the length of the hole and the fact it plays into the wind, but I really didnt like them.  As I said earlier, two putting from one end of the green to the other is pretty easy, and with three tiers surely it should present more challenge then 'pretty easy' IMO.  I cannot compare to PD because I have never played there or any of the three Bandon courses yet...[/color]

Not a hole I like either, same for a few holes on the course.

Notice the bunkers left of the green that are now gone.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

#11 is a different story.  The hole was redone slightly from how Rees had it but what was done made it kind of a weird hole,, whether it was a skyline green or not.  It is not very interesting.

Jordan, how was it redone ?

The hole originally had two bunkers on the left side of the green.  [size=4x]My guess is[/size] they were probably like 7 or 8 feet deep, appropriate for the shortest hole on the course (and plus that is how deep the pit is).

Recently a new owner (I dont know how recently, sorry, [size=4x]that is just what I was told by a worker)[/size] started taking away some bunkers, making them pits,

and even to the right of the second hole this happened.  Surely I know this is true because the diagram of the hole on the website for Sandpines above hole #11 shows two bunkers to the left of the green.[/color]

Then why did you blame Rees Jones for those sandless pits in an earlier thread ?

Why blame Rees Jones for the impact that the removal of the bunkers on the right of # 2 had on the hole ?

You can't have it both ways.
[/color]

The thing with number 11 is that even though it is the shortest hole on the course there are absolutely no bunkers on it and if you miss the green it is pretty much an easy up and in from anywhere.  Even the huge pit to the left which was recently put there makes for a pretty simple little chip.


Again, if Rees Jones had bunkers there, why blame him for their removal if the new owner did it ?[/color]

How do you know it was recently put there ?
When was it put there ?

Sorry but [size=4x]I cant say I know exactly when, I just know a new owner put them there, and the WORKER tells me[/size] he did this to make the course easier  Maybe easier, maybe not, but I think bunkers would have been better.

It sounds like your sources are unimpeachable.
Perhaps you should consider getting information from more reliable sources before putting pen to paper.[/color]

The green is OK, the tiers are pretty boring.  

How can multiple tiers be boring ?

How would you compare that green to the 13th and 14th greens at Pacific Dunes ?

Please address each question with specifics and not vague generalizations.

Well, there are three tiers, pretty small, and besides the tiers the green is completely flat. [/color] [size=4x]
WHAT ?[/size]   Are you completely daft ?

What would you expect with three small tiers, highly contoured surfaces on each plateau ?   ?   ?

Please, please, please, THINK before you post.

Maybe the tiers are used to spin a ball back or something due to the length of the hole and the fact it plays into the wind, but I really didnt like them.  [/b][/color]


And just maybe, the three tiers on a short hole are to challenge the golfer to get on the appropriate level or face a difficult putt to another tier.

I'm begining to think that you don't get it.[/color]


As I said earlier, two putting from one end of the green to the other is pretty easy, and with three tiers surely it should present more challenge then 'pretty easy' IMO. [/color]

How is putting from one end, to another, over three tiers "pretty easy" ?

Would you be willing to bet the over under on two putts ?[/color]

I cannot compare to PD because I have never played there or any of the three Bandon courses yet...[/color]

Notice the bunkers left of the green that are now gone.

That's not Rees Jones's doing, so why blame him for something the new owner did ?[/color]

[Jordan Wall]

When did I blame Rees for this??

I just said I didnt like it.  It didnt fit.  I also said I did not know when the hole was redone but why should that matter when[/color] it was done??  If it was done it was done, whether it was done 10 years ago or 15.

And I would certainly rather have a highly contoured green then three bowing tiers!!

Also, I did not blame Rees for the sandless pits in a previous thread, because I did not even know about them until I played the course.

btw, I have not blamed Rees for these problems!!  I just said they were problems, not that Rees did them[/color]

[Tom Jefferson]

I predict that some day there will be a plaque set on either the 2nd or the 11th hole at Sandpines, acknowledging the 17000 posts on this wise site discussing, ad infinitum, the virtues of Sandpines architecture!!!!!!!


Tom

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

Ad infinitum or ad nauseum?

 

[Jordan Wall]

Hopefully Sandpines will recognize they need to fix their course instead of making a plaque!!

 

And remember its not 'virtues os Sandpines', its the lack of.....

[Tom Jefferson]

Kyle..........both, with an emphasis on nausem!

Thanks for that,
Tom

[Tom Jefferson]

Jordan (and all);

I trust that the new owners are very aware of what elements of the Sandpines course needs 'fixing.'

They are living in the real world of resources, limitations, markets, cash flow, budgets, histories, and past plans and future hopes.  Those factors have, as others on this site have accurately stated, been weighing on the both the past and current life of that course.  

That course DOES NOT simply float in the air, ripe for everyone's arrows and opinions.  Surely, were it possible, many different decisions would be made by many all along the way, including ones of design and construction.

Surely, all of us can learn from the example of Sandpines.  It does take some discernment to do so, as well as the ability to not take it all too personally.

I would suggest that some lightening up is in order.  May Sandpines have a well deserved rest.  It deserves it.

Thanks to all,
Tom

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

After playing this course here is my opinion...

...decent, fun course, really not bad

Also, holes 1, 2, 5, and 11 were dumb dumb dumb...two looks good picture-wise but is dumb and 11 has a huge eight foot grass pit beside it that was supposed to be a bunker...bad!!

Tell me, what went wrong here

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom Jefferson,
Now wait a second! No one in the world would love to see a little ray of sunlight hit Florence and Sandpines. I almost consider it a summer home, unfortunately I haven't been back there in about three or four years because all of my family up in Oregon moved back to LA. (after 34 years!)

Florence and Siltcoos holds a very special spot in my heart both in and out of the golf world. But the problem here is that Sandpines had no problem publishing their hefty, bloated and way out-of-line Golf Digest standing for years and will probably continue to do so.

Live by the Sword, Die by the Sword!

The harsh critique of the course should be more of a study of what went wrong with all parties involved, as well as the economy, the infrastructure and the engineering. (including the architecture)

I only hope to encourage the new owners to make the changes neccessary to bring it up to the standard of what a trip to Florence should be all about. As I have said before, I think Rees Jones should be the first one at the door, holding the hand of his associate who designed Olde Kinderhook, offering his services free of charge--just to help make it a viable stop on any Bandon Dunes trip. His efforts there display a great lack of effort. Why not simply turn the entire place around?

You couldn't lead more bees to honey!

That's what is going to make Sandpines a successful venture for it's new owners--a total effort. Because in this world of competition and comparisons, it's going to be shunned by everyone simply because it isn't even in the Bandon-class of courses. Forget the clubhouse for the time being. Concentrate on making the golf course as pure of an experience as the dunes surrounding it and that at one time, actually used to exist on it.

[Tom Jefferson]

Mr. Naccarato:

I agree.  Mostly.
Certainly more really good golf on the Oregon coast is a good thing.  Certainly I would like the new owners to be able to turn their project into a viable one.
I encourage you, if you have their ear, or by any other worthy means, to convince the owners to make changes to the course and it's operation that will help it reclaim it's potential.
And, it would be v. warm and fuzzy if Mr. Jones offered his skills FREE OF CHARGE to take that design in the direction of
it's potential.  
But.  But, I stay away from that v. sticky SHOULD word.
It would be cool if he was so attached to the Sandpines project that he wanted to give his time like that.  That is none of my business, however, and I won't go there.
You know, we go around in our lives 'shoulding' here and 'shoulding' there, and we end up with 'shoulds' all over ourselves, and like s__tting, it can get a little stinky!!

The new supt. is a good guy and a knowledgable turf manager, and I trust he is making a good effort, within the constraints he works with, to make that turf, which I always found to be wet, heavy, and slow, a little firmer and healthier.
Whenever I played Sandpines that, as much as anything, took the fun away from it.........it always has felt like a long, long slog around the property....course that couldn't have anything to do with my declining skills or aging body!!!!

First tee at Bandon Trails at 10:50 this morning....gotta go!

Tom

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tommy Naccarato,

With all of that gorgeous coastline from Northern California to Canada, why hadn't there been a number of good golf courses designed and built, prior to Mike Keiser's venture at Bandon ?

If the land is that good, and I'm not sold on the contention that Sandpines, which is removed from the coastline, was that good, why weren't more good to great golf courses built in the last 100 years ?

Something doesn't seem right.

Is it the weather, the isolation, the lack of population, a lack of interest, or a combination of the above.

Some courses in Oregon are highly touted, but, they couldn't make the top 50 in the MET area.

Strangely enough, I think Tokatee had/has potential.

Why has there been an absence of outstanding golf courses on land deemed to be spectacular ?

Which is a better site, Sandpiper or Sandpines ?

Wasn't the ARCO site a great site ?

When Californians permit refineries but prohibit golf courses on the same land, you know that you guys are radically out of touch with intelligent, if not prudent thought.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tom Jefferson,

Without the funds, nothing will be done.

Do you know how much the new owner paid for the property ?

Tommy Naccarato,

I wonder how Pacific Dunes would look with a huge water tower perched high above the 18th tee ?

Let's suppose you and I bought Sandpines, and that we wanted to redesign it.

Are there any evironmental or permiting problems that would impede our efforts ?

[Tom Jefferson]

Mr. Mucci;
I know nothing of the sale price.
My answer to your question of Tom N......a combination of the above.
Both the sandpiper and the Arco sites are far superior, in my opinion.
First tee, Bandon Trails..gotta go...first gotta find out which end of the club to hold!
Tom

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