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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

The answer: A surprise ending
« on: February 21, 2006, 11:06:55 PM »
The question:

What happens when developers of a residential golf community prioritize the golf course and not the home sites ?

The surprise ending:   Jupiter Hills

Jupiter Hills is an anomoly.

The golf course/s were the first priority with homesites being the second priority and as such, two interesting golf courses were created on most unusual topography.

I would venture a guess that as a residential community Jupiter Hills enjoys two of the best golf courses of any residential community.

Jupiter Hills should have served as a model for other residential golf communities, yet, its formula was clearly ignored throughout south Florida, and probably nationwide.

What are the best residential golf courses that are truely golf courses and not just 18 golf holes strung out amongst home
sites  ?

What residential golf courses have their homesites at the perimeter of the golf course as opposed to having the golf course meander through the home sites ?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2006, 12:22:33 AM »
Although I haven't played there, the 2 courses at Fazio's Berkeley Hall in Bluffton, SC were promoted as "core golf courses" with all housing on the perimeter and no interior building lots. www.berkeleyhallsc.com

Likewise the new RiverCrest in suburban Philadelphia.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2006, 01:09:32 AM »
In Florida or anywhere for that matter, it's hard to find a better meeting of golf course and residences than at the Mountain Lake Club.  There are homesites throughout the property yet they never once take away from the golf experience.  

The master plan put together by Frederick Law Olmstead back in 1915 was really the first planned golf community of it's kind.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2006, 05:56:34 AM »
I looked at this pretty carefully for a friend who is a developer, and the best that I have seen in a modern course is Hawk Pointe, where much of the credit goes to the developer. When I was last there, the housing only touched on 18.





Sadly, if not for all the housing issues, I think we would talk much more about George Bahto's original Stonebridge on Long Island.

SPDB

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Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2006, 07:34:16 AM »
Pat -
Why is it a surprise ending if the developer promotes golf over home sites?

Jupiter Hills, by now, is not worried about profits. But for many of these developers, even the ones who swear that housing will not encroach, building out homes on the golf course is a necessity if the development is to succeed financially.

Regrettable as that may be.

wsmorrison

Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2006, 07:49:43 AM »
Indian Creek in Miami, FL is one of my favorite clubs anywhere.  The golf and residential community was built on a man-made island 4 feet above sea level.  Flynn used material dredged from the bay to build the island up to over 30 feet in spots.  The golf course (Flynn) and clubhouse (Maurice Fatio) are both superb with the homesites on the outside of the golf course in approximately 270 degrees of a circle.  The homes go for $30 million and up.

Here's a modern photo, I believe courtesy of Scott Burroughs:


Michael Hayes

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Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2006, 11:13:49 AM »
Sahalee CC is a golf course with houses on and around it.  I have played hundreds of rounds there and never felt cramped by the houses.  I have felt cramped by the trees, but another round of chainsaw work by their crew this winter is starting to pay big dividends.  The 9 hole courses are put together like a cloverleaf and believe me their are a ton of houses, they just don['t cramp the golf course's style, if you know what I mean.
Bandonistas Unite!!!

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2006, 12:05:04 PM »
Pat -
Why is it a surprise ending if the developer promotes golf over home sites?

Because most don't realize, or didn't need to realize, that in the end, the quality of the golf course would become an important factor.

Today, with so much product in Florida, there appears to be a flight to quality.  More and more golfers are unsatisfied by the golf course at their residential development and are joining golf clubs dedicated solely to golf, or, they're joining golf courses at other residential communities that they feel are better than the golf course where they reside.

Jupiter Hills has a substantive waiting list.
Most courses are short on members.

Why ?

Because the product is exceptional.


Jupiter Hills, by now, is not worried about profits.

That's not true.

When you're about to spend 4,500,000 on your golf course and you just finished a spectacular clubhouse that had to be in excess of 10,000,000, being profitable is a priority.

The primary goal of any organization should be to perpetuate itself, and when you're competing with inumerable entities, quality makes your entity stand head and shoulders above the others, and Jupiter Hills does that.


But for many of these developers, even the ones who swear that housing will not encroach, building out homes on the golf course is a necessity if the development is to succeed financially.

I think some developers cater to a clientele that want golf course views irrespective of the quality of the golf course.

Other clients don't want foursome after foursome staring into their homes from early morning until dark, invading their privacy, hence a home on a golf course has little appeal.

There are many successful developments that don't have a golf course.  And, there are successful developments without homes within the interior of the golf course.

Having holes run the gauntlet of homesites on both sides isn't attractive.

Having the golf course isolated from the homes in the sense that no homes are within the interior of the golf course produces a far more attractive and desireable golf course.  And, with more golfers wanting to play a quality golf course, it's difficult for an architect to create good golf courses when the land for the golf course was only made available through default

Many homesites at Jupiter Hills have a neighborhood flavor, with no golf views, with the Hills golf course to the north.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 12:05:38 PM by Patrick_Mucci_Jr »

John_Cullum

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Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2006, 12:08:43 PM »
Is Jupiter Hills not an equity club? I would have thought the developer had sold out by now.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Jerry Kluger

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Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2006, 12:14:01 PM »
Pat: My recollection from a number of years ago was that Old Marsh has a core golf course and the housing is limited and the housing does not the give the appearance of being the primary motive for the development of the property; is my recollection correct?

SL_Solow

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Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2006, 12:22:40 PM »
Pat;  How do you rate Pasatiempo on this issue?  A sleeper in Florida is the Hamlet in Delray Beach.  A Joe Lee that is a little short by current standards but walkable and well routed without too much intrusion from the homes.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2006, 12:24:53 PM »
Pat,

Here is something that was in one of Paul Daley's Worldwide Perspective books on the issue you have raised, which is an excellent topic.  Your comments are exactly right.

Let us be thankful for those golfers whose deep and abiding love and respect for the game has ensured an off-course vigil that closely guards golf’s traditional values.  Threats to the game’s traditions and integrity are insidious and varied: playing equipment; course renovations; the PGA Tour; and course maintenance technology, to name a few.

The visually jarring spectre of residential housing is also placing in jeopardy one well-accepted fact: many golfers gravitated to golf in the first place to escape suburbia. Short walks between the green and the next tee, and seclusion from a manmade environment are some of the enjoyable aspects of golf courses not found within residential golf course communities. In short: golfers do not want to indulge in their favourite pastime with the omnipresence of housing. Golfers are intimidated by the fear that an errant shot may hit a home, which may explain why in some parts of the United States, golf courses that wend through residential sites are experiencing a significant reduction of play, compared to non-residential courses in the same area.  

The economic benefits of developing home sites on golf courses will not go away, however. Developers will always be enamoured of the seductive concept of having a golf course amenity to aid in selling home sites at a higher price, and at an accelerated rate. Some developers opt to build as many home sites adjacent to the golf course as possible. At a typical community, the golf course is routed among residential lots that line all, or portions, of the golf holes. Those that occupy the higher ground are especially valued to the project. The golf course may be routed over a variety of terrain, but is often built in areas not suitable for home sites: near stream corridors; wetlands; floodplains; steep slopes and so forth. These areas fall within the jurisdiction of permitting agencies, and require extensive engineering to secure permits. Frequently, additional engineering is required to permit golf courses, which are often the receptacle of storm water drainage from the residential development. The detailed planning and construction issues, protracted permitting process, and high infrastructure costs provide important reasons for not designing an interwoven network of roads, pipes, cart paths, golf holes, and home sites.  Taken as a whole, the case is compelling!

The key issue for the developer is the added premiums for locating home sites on the golf course.  However, these premiums are diminished because of the infrastructure required to service home sites that are strung throughout the property to be on the golf course. Stringing the home sites throughout the property results in more stream, wetland, and floodplain crossings. Additional land is consumed as a concession for safety-related issues, to ward off instances of golf balls flying out of control onto home sites. The sight of carts crossing roads can be irksome and disruptive to the golfing experience, and a safety issue in its own right. Storm detention, drainage, and utilities crossing roads and golf course become more complex, all adding to any project’s development costs. Through sheer weight of consideration, planning and zoning issues grow in complexity, and delay the eventual permitting of the project. The premiums for putting home sites on golf courses are diminished because of the delays and costs associated with permitting and developing a typical residential golf course community.

Residential home sites can be grouped either into a traditional neighbourhood development that has smaller lots, narrower streets, and sidewalks linking the home sites to parks and natural areas close by, or to commercial areas at the periphery of the property. Portions of the traditional neighbourhood may front the golf course in limited areas without intruding into the core golf course. Instead of the home sites backing up to the course, home sites on deeper lots can adjoin protected areas, such as stream corridors and ponds. The deeper lots allow for a native vegetation buffer within the conservation easements between the home sites and the stream or pond. In a typical golfing-residential development, the golf course and home sites require more land than if the golf course were a core layout. A traditional neighbourhood development adjacent to a core golf course could have more land available for home sites to back up to open space, and more land available for walking and hiking trails. Moreover, it would help preserve the integrity of the game, satisfy the desire of homeowners to live within a community that promotes outdoor activities, protect and enhance the buyer’s investment, and financially benefit the developer. Conflict can be avoided if the golf course is mostly removed from the residential home sites, making the land development review process proceed more smoothly. The residential and golf course infrastructure costs can be significantly reduced when roads do not cut through the site, and all in the name of trying to get most of the home sites adjacent to a golf course and stretch them out over as much as two miles, over a 400-acre property.  

For golfers, the benefits of a non-residential course layout are tremendous. In these cases, the routing is enhanced primarily because the most suitable land can be incorporated into the course design without it being earmarked as land for home sites. In my experience, the best hole-configuration plans are formulated when minimal earthmoving is required, does not adversely affect woodland connections, accommodates the land’s natural drainage patterns, and incorporates the land’s natural resources into the strategy, all the while beautifying the holes. A land-based traditional core layout remains the best method of achieving these goals.  

By contrast, all too often a typical residential golf course community forces the shuffling of the golf course into difficult terrain like steep wooded slopes, floodplains and wetlands. One of the biggest drawbacks is the massive earth-movement required to overcome the steep or low-lying terrain. Earth moving imparts the greatest negative impact on the natural environment.  A course based upon the traditional golf course model offers the best chance of producing a routing   that results in a   magnificent   course    that requires the least amount of earth disturbance. If earth movement is confined to features like bunkers and greens, then many environmental benefits are gained. While it is best to keep the golf course mostly in the open parts of the land, holes that must enter wooded areas will require removal of just the trees required for play, and for air circulation, and sun if there is little earth movement. This model provides an opportunity to maintain large wooded areas, core habitats for a greater number of species, and protecting aquifers and interconnected drainage networks. Minimum earth movement maintains the land’s natural drainage patterns, can be an important part of the strategic design, and beautifies the course as well.

Woodland connections are critical to wildlife movement. Disturbing these connections has a major impact on the environment. A typical golf course community will have a major impact on woodlands and stream corridors. If the golf course is forced to cut a swathe through these areas, roads and home sites come along with the course as well making a much bigger impact on the natural systems. A non-residential golf routing plan attempts to preserve the existing woodlands. However, where disturbances must occur, an enlightened plan avoids splitting wooded areas into smaller patches. Furthermore, this approach can incorporate existing patches of woodlands into the golf course property, and over time these smaller patches can be increased and connected by using native trees transplanted from the site.

Reducing earth movement preserves the land’s natural drainage patterns. A land- based core routing plan also preserves the integrity of larger drainage ways through the land, like stream and river corridors. Golf holes are set back from these corridors, and native buffers are maintained between the primary play areas of the course—tees, fairways, rough, and greens—and the stream corridor. Chemicals and fertilisers properly used for the maintenance of the primary play areas can be diverted from entering a stream by grading, and more effectively, by maintaining or enhancing a wide vegetated buffer that consists of native materials in the form of grasses, shrubs and trees. The vegetation provides a buffer against these substances entering the stream by providing friction in the form of plant stems and litter, root absorption, and an organic soil that absorbs these dissolved substances.    

A traditional neighbourhood development next to a golf course can provide a superior environment for living, and also for playing golf. By respecting the natural elements—terrain, drainage patterns and woodlands—these elements can become a part of the strategic design and beautify the course. A common thread through all great golf courses is the exceptional quality of the land on which they were laid out. History has shown that this can only be preserved if the course is not punctured by residential development. The natural elements can be preserved within the neighbourhood to the enjoyment of the residents as well. Never again should it be assumed that developers automatically benefit from stringing home sites throughout the golf course. There is a better, more natural alternative.

john_stiles

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Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2006, 12:25:57 PM »
Holston Hills (1927) in Knoxville was a real estate development.  There was a course routing considered that meandered amongst the rolling hills with homes on each side of the fairways.  This routing was much further away from the chosen course location.

They selected the land closer to the river for the course with modest houses on the course exterior.  Today, there are a few houses along the course exterior, next to four holes.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2006, 12:28:46 PM »
Jerry Kluger,

While there are plenty of home sites at Old Marsh they utilized in interesting method for making them seem non-intrusive, but, they're many homes adjacent to individual holes.

John Cullum,

I think you have to differentiate the entities involved in some of these complexes.

One entity can be the golf club, the other entity the real estate development company.  Hence, a golf club could have an equity based membership, but have nothing to do with the real estate development entity.

In many of these complexes the general developer sell parcels to home builders who in turn build and market their product, seperate and apart from the golf club.

Some complexes mandate membership with home ownership.
Others don't require membership with home ownership.

Some allow outside members who aren't homeowners, other require you to be a home owner to be a member.

Dan Joseph

Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2006, 12:39:03 PM »
McCormick Woods in Port Orchard est. 1987.  It's been many years since I've played there but the course and my round still sticks out as one of my favorites.

The golf course not only offers a championship caliber layout, but also a true walk with nature through the Northwest landscape.  The course is tree lined with towering firs and cedars, and meanders amongst a series of beautiful lakes.  Each and every one of the eighteen holes offers a tranquil setting, as no two holes border one another.  There are some beautiful homes that come into site but are set back and do not come into play.  

Michael Hayes

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Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2006, 12:45:09 PM »
Dan Joseph,

RE: McCormick Woods.  While it is true that houses don't come into play, but the course itself is just barely walkable, at least 5 road crossings between green and tee make it more of a housing development than a golf course.

MH
Bandonistas Unite!!!

John_Cullum

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Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2006, 12:46:41 PM »
Pat

The point of my query is to find out wheteher the members are paying for the improvements or the developer is making improvements to attract more property sales.

of the scenarios you mention, the best structure is to require property owners to be full golf members. If not (and this is  especially the case in Florida) they will drop out of the club when they get to old to continue playing golf frequently or enjoyably. Unless they have to keep a stake in the game, they will sit back and allow the club to support their property value without making any contribution. This will start a downward spiral of the quality of the club.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2006, 12:59:55 PM »
John Cullum,

While I saw some new homes being built, it looked like it was
99% built out.

I think clubs have learned the hard way that they have to do as you suggested.

One club that I'm familiar with recently amended their by-laws to incorporate the dual feature.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2006, 01:19:49 PM »
John,

As a homeowner within a golf development I would not want to be saddled by a requirement that the person buying my home also has to pony up to be  a full member because that might limit my potential buyers.  I have seen where each lot has a membership reserved for that lot.  If the homeowner chooses they can activate the membership.  The nice thing for the homeowner is that when they go to sell the lot they have the membership as an amenity.  I have not understood how a club might address a situation where someone buys the home then exercises the option to activate the membership, and the club turns them down.  I am certain Pat or someone knows more about that.  It seems hat for many of these developments they must look outside the residential community for members.  If every homeowner is required to pony up to be a member you could also end up with a bunch of members that never use the club which could hurt you with other sources of income that is attained from an active membership.

PCCraig

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Re:The answer: A surprise ending
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2006, 01:58:00 PM »
A good example of a golf community dedicated to golf is Forest Creek in Pinehurst. Other than one hole (#11 on the old course)out of 37, the houses never come into play.

The owners supposidly had so much land to work with that they told fazio to build 36 holes and they would work around that.
H.P.S.

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