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mike_malone

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"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« on: February 16, 2006, 02:26:46 PM »
 Jim Gallagher said this about the #6 par 3 at Riviera  with its bunker in the middle .

   Is this correct?
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Jonathan Davison

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2006, 02:29:38 PM »
I think a Gary Player course in South Africa has, maybe Fancourt?
And Doonbeg I think?
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RJ_Daley

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2006, 02:33:32 PM »
No.  17 Bayside, Ogallala NE.  And it is not just a knockoff sort of thing.  It is a seriously good golf hole.


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mike_malone

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2006, 02:41:22 PM »
 They say the same thing on the hole description on the PGA Tour website. I didn't think it was so.
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Rick Shefchik

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2006, 02:43:06 PM »
The question is, should there be another one?

It's a distinctive feature, and I have to admit that during the L.A. Open I always hope a pro has to take out his 60 degree wedge and lob one from one side of the green to the other, over that bunker.

But I wouldn't be in favor of building a bunker within a green on any other course. There's the maintenance issue of people using wedges on the green, for one thing (and I believe you should never disalow that shot. If you're going to present players with that specific problem, you should allow them to address it any way they choose, within the rules.)

In addition, the game's hard enough without the members storming off to the next hole muttering to themselves, "Even when I hit the green, I'm in a @#$@#%$ bunker!"

 

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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

John Goodman

Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2006, 02:51:30 PM »
The first at Northwick Park outside London (apparently a 6 hole "playcentre") is of the knockoff variety, I think:

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Paul_Turner

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2006, 02:56:20 PM »
Sunnidale Old's 13th used to.  Maybe the first ever?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 02:56:38 PM by Paul_Turner »
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wsmorrison

Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2006, 02:57:57 PM »
Paul,

When and why do you think it was removed?  Not a case of excess play, right?
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T_MacWood

Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2006, 03:03:21 PM »
Darwin claimed (in his autoboiography I believe) there was a green at Woking with a bunker in the middle.
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Mark_Fine

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2006, 03:05:23 PM »
There are numerous greens out there with bunkers in the middle of them.  In fact, if you pick up a copy of the Feb/March issue of Golf Tips Magazine, Tom and I used a picture of one from Desert Mountain's Chiricahua course for our monthly golf architecture article.  The topic of the article is "fairness".  I think most on this site would enjoy it.  
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RJ_Daley

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2006, 03:05:56 PM »
Speaking of the uniqueness of the green center bunker, is there any more beautiful top shot fingered cape and bay bunker than the one on this same hole?  
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Paul_Turner

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2006, 03:07:05 PM »
Not sure Wayne.  It was ages ago and controversial, the bunker was nicknamed "Colt's Po".   Not sure how long it lasted but I might be able to find out.

The 13th isn't one of the great holes at Sunningdale.  It's decent and has a central bunker hard up against the green, but it's not in it.  A restoration?
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T_MacWood

Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2006, 03:12:51 PM »
Paul
When did Colt add that bunker and what is a Po.

Did George Thomas spend any time in the UK?
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wsmorrison

Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2006, 03:29:42 PM »
Thanks, Paul.  I would be interested to find out when the bunker was removed.  Do you have a photo of the green with the bunker?  I guess not, because if you did it would be posted--you're great about that.

Tom MacWood,

I know what a Po Boy is.  Me.  I used to have money, but now I'm Po  ;)
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Paul_Turner

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2006, 03:45:40 PM »
Wayne

No, no pics I'm afraid.

Tom

Hilton writes about it in one of the magazines (I'll have to check the date) and it's also documented in a short club history form the 1960s.  

"Po" was slang for chamber pot.  Not very flattering!
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john_stiles

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2006, 04:32:44 PM »
Yes, Doonbeg (Greg Norman) in Ireland has bunker in the middle of a par 4.  And the bunker sand was not visible from my fairway angle (or maybe any fairway approach).  It was only visible by the raised lip/brow of the bunker.

Looked like this Doonbeg greens' bunker would be most difficult if out of position.  Didn't have time (group behind) to hit some 'test' shots.
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Dan_Callahan

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2006, 05:22:25 PM »
Doesn't The Reserve have a bunker in the middle of the 17th green? I remember it having a major impact at the Jeld-Wen last year. Lauren Roberts and Dana Quigley in the playoff, I think.
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Jason Topp

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2006, 05:27:39 PM »
Des Moines Country Club (Dye) actually has a pretty good one #2 North course I believe.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2006, 06:40:43 PM »
Didn't # 13 at NGLA have a bunker in the middle of the green at one time ?
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Garland Bayley

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2006, 06:43:57 PM »
Quote from: Dan_Callahan on February 16, 2006, 05:22:25 PM
Doesn't The Reserve have a bunker in the middle of the 17th green? I remember it having a major impact at the Jeld-Wen last year. Lauren Roberts and Dana Quigley in the playoff, I think.
Not unless they added it after 2004 when I attended.

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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Forrest Richardson

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2006, 08:01:04 PM »
The 19th Hole (bonus hole) at Arizona Biltmore Adobe was created with a bunker in the green, which is ususally used for short game practice. We did this in hommage to Bell, Sr., designer of the Adobe — and also because it fit.
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A_Clay_Man

Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2006, 08:05:43 PM »
Quote from: Rick Shefchik on February 16, 2006, 02:43:06 PM
The question is, should there be another one?

It's a distinctive feature, and I have to admit that during the L.A. Open I always hope a pro has to take out his 60 degree wedge and lob one from one side of the green to the other, over that bunker.

But I wouldn't be in favor of building a bunker within a green on any other course. There's the maintenance issue of people using wedges on the green, for one thing (and I believe you should never disalow that shot. If you're going to present players with that specific problem, you should allow them to address it any way they choose, within the rules.)

In addition, the game's hard enough without the members storming off to the next hole muttering to themselves, "Even when I hit the green, I'm in a @#$@#%$ bunker!"

 



Rick, Firstly, Bayside is public and would likely welcome the the maintenance headaches associated with too much play. Secondly, in this instance, there are creative puttable options, which I'm sure most are forced to figure out. I say forced because they likely left their lob wedge in the cart, which on this hole, is a considerable walk back. But the real issue I found odd was about Seeing that member walk off the green muttering. Sounds priceless to me. If I saw that I would bring it up as often as possible whenever I saw the guy. It's value is like a dividend, when the situation gets mentioned, in the subsequent years, the laughing alone will add years to everyone's life. In other words consideridering the sensitivies of people, on the golf course about the golf course somehow designs-out any real living. Doesn't it?

« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 08:06:33 PM by Adam Clayman »
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Garland Bayley

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2006, 08:41:32 PM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on February 16, 2006, 06:43:57 PM
Quote from: Dan_Callahan on February 16, 2006, 05:22:25 PM
Doesn't The Reserve have a bunker in the middle of the 17th green? I remember it having a major impact at the Jeld-Wen last year. Lauren Roberts and Dana Quigley in the playoff, I think.
Not unless they added it after 2004 when I attended.


I found a picture online. It looks as if there is a bunker in the green, but I wonder if it is one of the double greens there and the green area on the other side of the bunker is for another hole.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Rick Shefchik

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Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2006, 10:50:15 PM »
Adam --

I was with you until the last line, which I don't think I completely understand, but I think what you're saying is, "Lighten up."

Agreed.
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tom Zeni

Re:"There isn't another one like it anywhere."
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2006, 10:58:45 PM »
Maybe Gallagher should have qualified his statement to say "no where else on the PGA tour."
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 10:59:25 PM by Tom Zeni »
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