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Haven Marceau

Education, experience, etc
« on: February 13, 2006, 09:06:09 AM »
I am looking for some insider advice regarding how to go about getting into the business of golf course design.  I've been in the golf business for a number of years, persuing a teaching professional career.  Like many before me I've become disillusioned by the lack of connection with what I consider the heart of the game.

Course architecture seems a rather enigmatic pursuit, and I would love to hear some stories about how those in the business got to where they are.  I feel lucky to have found this site.  I've learned more about the subject in the short time I've been around here than I have in previous years.

How would you go about designing an architect?


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Haven Marceau

Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2006, 06:49:45 PM »
No one has any advice?
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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2006, 07:05:04 PM »
Haven,
  Why do you want to become a golf course architect? It seems odd to me that you have been in the golf business for a while, but don't know how to get into the golf design biz.
   The best advice I could give you is to read "Driving the Green" by John Strawn. If you still want to be an architect after that then ask us some more questions.
    What have you done thus far to prepare yourself to be a golf course architect?
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

David_Tepper

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Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2006, 07:12:48 PM »
Haven -

This topic has come up several times here over the past couple of years.  I think the answers combine getting some college level education in areas like landscape architecture/design and agronomy with work in the field (starting as a laborer) for a golf course design/construction firm.

DT
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Haven Marceau

Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2006, 07:55:32 PM »
Thanks for the help DT.

Ed,

I want to become a golf course architect because I know that I can design better courses than the majority of those that are out there being built as I write this.  I want to become a golf course architect because I'm tired of Nicklaus making millions of dollars designing a slicers paradise.  I want to become a golf course architect because I want to revolutionize the way that golf courses impact the environment.  I want to become a golf course architect because I love the game and I hate the direction in which it is headed.  I want to become a golf course architect because I don't have an overly large penis and I want to enact revenge upon the world for my modest endowment.

I want to become a golf course architect because I want to prove that the insecure jobbers who dominate the industry were correct in trying to keep me out by trying to persuade me that the subject is over my head and unapproachable.  I want to become a golf course architect because I want to put all the phony designers and corporate lacky designers out of business by designing courses that are so far superior to their drivel that a retarded chimpanzee could point out which is the superior product.

That is why I want to design courses, and if you find it odd that I am not clear on how to get into the design biz I would ask that you work as an assistant professional sometime and see how often the topic of architecture comes up.
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Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2006, 08:16:58 PM »
I can't help you with your question Haven, but I might suggest you never take a job with the postal service.  Good luck and watch those zippers.

Actually I do have advise for you.  If your pecker is that small, hell get rid of it become a golf architect and GolfWeek will do a 5 page spread on you, they like those kind of feel good stories.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 08:22:32 PM by Kelly Blake Moran »
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2006, 09:17:21 PM »
Kelly ....GW will do that?....do you think they might also do a two or three page spread for a reduction surgery?
....hell, talk about a win/win for my career and my gal!  
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 09:53:05 PM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2006, 09:22:42 PM »
surprised we haven't heard more on the GW article...interersting
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 09:22:57 PM by Mike_Young »
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2006, 09:40:27 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Young on February 13, 2006, 09:22:42 PM
surprised we haven't heard more on the GW article...interersting

I read the whole article, and I'm not sure what their point was.  It would seem to me that gender-change GCA's would be a pretty small subset in American society  ::); as a reader, I couldn't connect with the battles involved and the need to correct injustices.  Glad it is working out for her, though.

I would have thought by now there would have been some comments here on the courses designed by this individual.
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"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2006, 11:16:33 PM »
Haven,
   I was not trying to be a hardass, thats one downside to computers, you can't decipher tone. I would clarify if someone is being a jerk before going off on them.  I simply asked some questions and provided some advice. Have you read Strawn's book? Being a golf course architect is not just about designing great golf courses. You have to sell yourself, deal with builders/shapers, environmental issues that can bog projects down for years, massage out of control client egos, etc... The list goes on forever.
    Personally, if I wanted to get creative and impact golf course design I would learn to be a shaper. You cut out most of the pain in the butt parts of the job and get to focus on creating something.
   Good luck with the path you take.
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Scott Cannon

Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2006, 01:31:30 AM »
and you did have 5 YaBB Gods reply to your post:)
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Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2006, 01:56:54 AM »
Haven,

There are so many different ways of getting in the business.  I was already in the construction business building everything from car parks to high speed railways when I was asked to start a golf course construction division.

During the first course that I built I asked the GCA thousands of questions.  Tried to learn as much as I could.  Later (a few years later) I decided to jump in with both feet and start designing.

The first course was ...ok but I realised I didn't have the educational background in drafting,theory etc so I took a year off to study in Scotland.

I re-mortgaged the house and took the whole family (2+2) over and studied on the Masters program at Heriot Watt.  I though it was great, others thought it was crap.  Those that already had a background in Landscape Architecture thought it was a wasted year whereas I thought it was very interesting and enjoyed the theory part of the business as I had never studied it before.

I came back to Norway and eventually joined up with my best friend Graeme Webster.  Luckily Graeme had a good reputation and a number of projects were lined up.

We now have two offices one in Aberdeen which also includes shapers etc and the office in Norway (me) that does all the computer work and site visits outside of Britain.

The only advice I can give you is: if you really want it, you will achieve it..

The best back door is to get into construction and hassle the GCA on the project for a job.

Everyone is going to ask you the same question...what makes you so different from every other Teaching Pro that thinks he/she can design?

Good Luck.

Brian Phillips.
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2006, 07:40:28 AM »
Quote from: paul cowley on February 13, 2006, 09:17:21 PM
Kelly ....GW will do that?....do you think they might also do a two or three page spread for a reduction surgery?
....hell, talk about a win/win for my career and my gal!  

I don't think Love Design needs much more exposure so to speak, but who knows maybe Golf Digest would bite and try to show their manly side by doing a story on an architect that was a real man so much so he had to trade in his extra stiff shafted driver for a stiff one.  It gets a little scary trying to get into the minds of these media people.  Can you imagine all the guys out there struggling, doing some pretty decent work, getting no recognition and then a major publication who devotes precious little space to architecture and they do a 5 page spread on that aspect of the architecture business.  
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2006, 09:02:08 AM »
Kelly ...let me make it clear I was offering up no one other than me for the knife in my feeble attempt at humour [I can be such a hoot at times in my own head ::)]...Davis and Mark are safe.
...and with no disrespect to the person portrayed.... I also found the article and its length to be a little OT for the magazine.
I was hoping to find out more about her body of work....and I still would, but then again I'm a designer [and humorist ;)] and that stuff interests me probably more than the average readership of GM.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 10:34:33 AM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

John Kavanaugh

Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2006, 09:06:10 AM »
Paul,

Have you ridden the bike Davis had built by Orange County...Now that was a clever bit of publicity.  I had some serious problems with the design but still enjoyed the show.
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Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2006, 09:14:29 AM »
What are you saying Paul, that Davis and Mark have the same affliction as Haven.  Man, you are digging a deep hole here.
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2006, 09:16:51 AM »
John ...no, I haven't even seen it much less ridden it and I'm not sure I could drive it even if I do see it.

...and I totally differ to your design talent in that arena.
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2006, 09:19:25 AM »
Kelly help me out man....I have to go to work with these folks soon ...hell I'm late! ;)
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Education, experience, etc
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2006, 09:19:43 AM »
Haven -

Why would your courses be so much better than whats out there now?

Do you have any design philosphies you can share with us?
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Jonathan Davison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Education, experience, etc New
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2006, 04:42:23 PM »
Haven
Advice -
1 -Listen to Brian Phillips - I did.
2- Be prepared to risk everything in life to be in this industry.
3- Don't have any design theories until you have experience of dealing with clients, planning issues, budgets, soil and every other thing that you never thought would influence your designs.
4- Work hard - rake greens, install drainage and pick stones if you have to.
5- Be passionate.
6- When you have finally reached your destination, its wonderful. To wake up every morning and you know that you are going to draw contours, a routing, meet clients, walk sites and all the other wonderful things this industry throws up is just pure heaven.
Good Luck
Jon
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 03:38:44 AM by Jonathan Davison »
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