Pebble Beach....not such a bad test after all

[Bob_Huntley]

Having played Pebble a couple of hundred times over the years, I thought that today's conditions were as benign as it comes.

I must say, that when I hear of the derogatory remarks made by some of the cognoscenti on GCA, as to the lack of bite that the course has in calm weather, I wonder what they thought of todays tournament.

Shirt sleeves all round, 70 degree weather, nae wind and a good run on the ball.

Will some of you detractors, please, please, say it's one great golf course.


Bob

[Scott Cannon]

Bob,
I haven't played PBGL as much as you, but I have always loved the course. I think the small sloping greens are a real test!
Holes 5-10,12,14 and 16-18 are all very good holes.

Sorry, I agree with you

Scott

[Mike Nuzzo]

Having played Pebble a couple of hundred times over the years

What a pity..  


The greens looked flat.  
Too many trees.

I did think of you today while watching the end of the round, and how much you must enjoy your surrounds.

Cheers

[Voytek Wilczak]

Bob:

I respect your feelings for Pebble - I really do.

I played it only once, and I came in with the obligatory expectation that I should be awed.

I was not, and I share the view of some folks here that it is a nice course on a great land.

I guess we all have unexplained love for certain courses - Pebble did not capture my heart like TOC, Ballybunion, or Shinnecock did.

But, I do not count myself among the cognoscenti here - I just love the game and the majesty of some of the places it's played on.

[Eric Franzen]

I am not a detractor and I have only played Pebble Beach once, but will still agree that it is a great course.

The 8th will always be one of my favorite holes in the world.

A couple of months ago I woke up jetlagged in my Ramada motel suite in Monterey. I went down to PB and had a lovely walk there when the sun rised. All alone on the course except for the occasional worker and the superintendent and his friendly dog. One of my most memorable mornings ever.

[ed_getka]

Bob,
   Well since you asked nicely. I've only played it once, so I doubt I'll make it up to the hundreds of rounds, unless I win millions in the lottery. I do think it is a very good golf course, but have never understood all the fuss about #7 (although I haven't played it in a really strong wind).
    The worst aspect of Pebble is the cost of the green fee. Highway robbery! Geez, by the time my boys grow up they'll have to choose between Pebble or college tuition.
   More than a few claim Pebble is 6 great holes, 6 mediocre, and 6 weak holes. I disagree. Some find #1 too weak, but I think it is a nice starter, and the green is no pushover. #4 could be seen as weak, but I happen to like the hole with its long skinny green. Other than that, #15 is the only other hole I perceive as weak.
    Pebble's small greens make it a tough test for someone as erratic at me, but I had a few highlights during my only round there.

[Bill_McBride]

Bob, I've loved Pebble for years, walked it as a kid carrying my bag. I'm very turned off by the OTT green fee and wall-to-wall cart paths......but I'd still love to be teeing it up tomorrow morning there!

Mike Nuzzo - the greens looked flat??  You think those guys were putting spin on those big breaking putts?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

I've always felt that it's a great golf course.

And, from the back tees it's a very worthy test, a challenge for the best players in the world.

And, when the wind blows, even the best players in the world whine a little.... or a lot.

I think most of the detractors are detractors for one reason and one reason only.      $ $ $ $ $ $ $

However, they couch the real reason for being a detractor in other forms.  

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob,


I think most of the detractors are detractors for one reason and one reason only.      $ $ $ $ $ $ $

However, they couch the real reason for being a detractor in other forms.  

Pat,

How right you are.

I don't think Messrs Olberhoser, Sabattini and crowd were thinking of the expense of the greeen fee! On a day when everyone was in shirt sleeves, a slight breeze on certain holes, no more than six player broke 70 and two Masters champions shot 77 and 78 respectively.

Bob

[Craig Sweet]

I don't know when I last saw so many good players hitting it left, right. and short so much. Especially short.

And the putting was absolutely horid.

[Tim Gavrich]

As wonderful as it is, it just wasn't that interesting to watch today.  It might have been the fault of Weir's horrible play, but no one even came close to challenging Oberholser toward the end.  It would seem that the Tour would want to set up the back nine so that someone might make a run, but this did not seem to be the case.

[Brian_Sleeman]

I agree with Bob (I've only seen it on TV hundreds of times, been there and saw a few holes once) and would say the interesting thing to watch today was the course itself.  

Sure, nobody really challenged Oberholser, but the course gave him a few runs for his money.  #14 was an interesting hole to watch today, as Oberholser began a brief bout with his nerves there and it showed how great a three-shot par five can be.

It's always fun to watch, particularly because they lose most of the CEO coverage on Sunday, letting Pebble shine for itself.

[Joel_Stewart]

Bob:

I'll say its a great course, with 8, 9 and 10 being really tough.  I played recently with 2 guys, both members of Cypress Point and partners at Pebble Beach.  They both said their favorite course was Pebble Beach.  Although Pebble is not my favorite course in the world, I would rather play it then Cypress Point.

[Scott Cannon]

the interesting thing to watch today was the course itself.  

couldn't agree more

[Jim Nugent]

Bob,
I haven't played PBGL as much as you, but I have always loved the course. I think the small sloping greens are a real test!
Holes 5-10,12,14 and 16-18 are all very good holes.

Sorry, I agree with you

Scott

I've never played the course.  You left out seven holes from you "very good" list though.  What do you think of those holes?  

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob,

The consensus opinion seems to be changing. Courtesy of Robert Thompson's blog, I found Ron Whitten's latest take on PB - destined, I suppose, to become the new common wisdom:

"Until recently, I'd been one of the many conceited critics who've scoffed at the notion that Pebble Beach is a great golf course. Just six great holes, was our collective pronouncement. Along with six ordinary holes and six bad ones. And to think some people regard it as the greatest course of all! But then I played Pebble again, and came away doubting my own prior judgment. I couldn't find six bad holes out there. I couldn't even figure out which were the six I'd always considered as ordinary...."

Peter

[rgkeller]

Certainly the finest golf course/housing development combination in the country.

[A_Clay_Man]

Save for the bus staion house on 18, the houses never interfered. Ok maybe that Strawberry maven's house that somewhat looms in the approach to 8? Otherwise, maybe it's thier size that make them look so much better than those condo lined in Palm Springs.
I've been thinking about the 6 6 6 comment. I had never ever heard that analogy before reading Whitten's article. It made me think the course has a balance unseen on most courses. Maybe?

[mike_malone]

 Did the good weather dry out the greens ? Did this make the difference in the difficulty versus previous years ?

[TEPaul]

BobH:

I don't watch the PGA Tour that much anymore but I did get into watching some of the AT&T and particularly the last round. I watched most of the last round and extremely carefully.

Before I even saw this thread of yours I was thinking about posting one of my own about Pebble on Sunday and what the course accomplished. As you say, it was challenging for the best players in the world and in benign weather conditions.

Why? You know this thing I call the "Ideal Maintenance Meld"? Well, most all yesterday I kept thinking that the AT&T (superintendcy and maintenance Dept of PB) just absolutely NAILED the IMM yesterday and particularly on the greens.

The greens were set up just about 100% IDEAL (for that level of golfer), in my opinion, and it really is a pretty sophisticated and nuancy process to acheive that (obviously you can't do it unless the weather cooperates coming into the tournament and during the tournament but clearly PB had that this week).

The firmness and the speed of those greens was 100% ideal for that level of player, in my opinion, and the pin setting were about as challenging as they could be with that F&F setup on the greens. And the good news was they appeared to absolutely nail the IMM on the greens without any green going over the top in playability. In other words, on every green there seemed to be a way to play it successfully if you really thought your strategies out comprehensively and executed them, and there were definitely ways you did not want to play them (best examples I saw were #10, 13, 14!!, 16, 17 and 18). But if you didn't play them correctly strategically you were likely to pay with a lost stroke or maybe even two if you got sloppy.

Did you notice how much pressure those greens put on the pros recovering around them and out of bunkers? Again, the firmness to approach shots was IDEALLY challenging and combined with the speed of those greens just completely highlighted basically all the architectural strategies that course presents. (By the way, I've been observing and testing fast greens for about 2-3 years now and those greenspeeds yesterday looked to be around 11 and maybe a tad above. Some might tell you they were 12 or 13 but they weren't----I can tell a real 11 by just how "ball creep" kicks in and PB had a certain amount of "ball creep" for players recovering or putting from the wrong spots).

So to me PB absolutely NAILED the IMM particularly on the greens and it showed in play bigtime. I think that's exciting because it shows how effective, if done correctly, these kinds of maintenance practices can be in turning the lights up full on all the strategies and options a course's architecture has.

The only thing I saw that could possibly have been improved on was if some of the approaches were just a tad firmer and a tad more bouncy so some could've gotten recovery approach shots on more effectively with a well thought out bounce in or run-in option----that is if they figured out the shot choice and executed it perfectly. If those approaches from about 30 yards and in had been a tad firmer and a bit more bouncy scoring may've gone down just a tad but not much and in the process we may've seen a bit more creative play from some of the better and more clever strategists.

The course is super because the architecture is super but the key to why yesterday was so good and so challenging and so interesting was because they got lucky with the weather going in and during the tournament, they figured out the ideal mix and they nailed the "Ideal Maintenance Meld" to the tune of about 97% and it really showed how effective it can be in play on a great course with excellent strategic architecture.

[Scott Cannon]

Bob,
I haven't played PBGL as much as you, but I have always loved the course. I think the small sloping greens are a real test!
Holes 5-10,12,14 and 16-18 are all very good holes.

Sorry, I agree with you

Scott

I've never played the course.  You left out seven holes from you "very good" list though.  What do you think of those holes?  

Jim,

#1 love this opener. Driver, 3 wood or long iron...It's #1 at freaking PBGL so its a tough pull. You want to get off to a good start. The second shot is very hard. Your standing on a left to right slope, and as you look at the green, there is a big drop-off to the right of the green. Its hard not to pull this shot.
#2 I hit 2 really good shots and birdied this one (Any par 5 I can hit in 2 I love)
#3 I hard to describe how hard it is to pick a line for your tee shot on this hole. Big sloping fairway and a awesome green.
#4 Even though it short, It is in a perfect spot on the course. It should be called "Take a deep breath" because you are at the end of the start of your round, and here comes 6 great holes.
#11 "take a deep breath II" and as you saw if you watched the tv coverage, it can be a tough hole.
#13. Although you aren't on the cliffs, the ocean is still clearly in view, so keep your focus. Another hard 2nd shot played on a right to left slope. BTW, your always thinking "don't go over the green", which weighs on you mind.
#15 By now the roller coaster that is PBGL has taken its toll. You need a hole like 15 to catch your breath. Yesterday all 3 leaders had problems with this hole.

So to answer your question, I love the whole course. Every hole cant be a signature hole or on the cliffs, but I didn't find a "weak" hole on the course. I think they are ALL thoughtfully placed and designed.

Scott

PS I know I suck at writing!

[Patrick_Mucci]

As wonderful as it is, it just wasn't that interesting to watch today.  It might have been the fault of Weir's horrible play, but no one even came close to challenging Oberholser toward the end.  

It would seem that the Tour would want to set up the back nine so that someone might make a run, but this did not seem to be the case.

How would you suggest that they do this ?

[TEPaul]

"It would seem that the Tour would want to set up the back nine so that someone might make a run, but this did not seem to be the case."

Patrick asked:
 
"How would you suggest that they do this?"

Patrick:

One obvious way to do it would be to just "script" the whole damn thing. So many seem to be demanding only "entertainment value" on the PGA Tour so maybe "scripting" or scripted finishes may be next. Of course if the script calls for one of them to make about five birdies coming down the stretch I guess we'll find out how true this PGA Tour slogan "These Guys Are Good" really is.  

[George Pazin]

How nice to see a course play firm.

15 has to be one of the toughest easy holes in the world.

[Craig Sweet]

Was the course playing all that tough on Sunday, or were the "leaders" playing poorly?

Of those golfers tied for 23rd or better....17 shot under par on Sunday...9 shot over par on Sunday...and one...the winner...shot par.