[Lynn_Shackelford]

What you say would be what 90% of today's architects would do, and it would increase the interest for the single digit handicap player.
However what do you think about this?  You are coming off a difficult par 4 (11), coming up to 13 and 14.  14 requires a good drive, so the majority of the golfers aren't complaining about a break on the drive at 12.  By the way, the hole is pretty well defended at the green.  There are fewer birdies on this hole than you would think.  I don't think the hole needs anything else, but the fun of the hole is many have debated your point of view and I suspect will continue to discuss it until someday the owner will cave in to that thought that harder is better, and put a fairway bunker out there.  

[Don Dinkmeyer]

Well, this is one more Great reason to stitch together a California golf trip -- i don't even have to play PBeach thanks to the knowledge base of this board...

[Forrest Richardson]

I think it is a good thing to consider a recently played course as one's "favorite."

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

Basically, I'll never hear enough desciptions of the details and nuances of the 12th. Glad you liked it but in your opinion is there any reason you might be inclined to play the tee shot out to the right of the fairway given a particular pin position? I'm quite certain the only reason you might ever want to do that is for a full shot in (spin). I don't know about GeoffShac, Gil, JIm Wagner, but I was of the opinion conceptually on a hole like that that an option never used is not a good option---either conceptually or in fact. Even for the long crowd I was hoping there may be some reason (some pin placement) that would induce even a long driver to play wide, at least occasionally.

On the other hand, I'm also a big fan of very short par 4s that are virtually driveable that for various reasons can turn away an eagle or even birdie attempt in some clever and subtle way. The reason I love those types of holes is I feel they have the potential to make good players mad through disappointment (so near and yet so far! ). I do understand, though, that some golfers see holes like that as too easy, particularly if they ever do actually make an eagle on them.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Just because "wide right" is never a good option on that hole for Shivas or Matt Ward, doesn't mean that it's not often a good option for the 15-handicaps who frequent the course.

[David Ober]

A bit more from me on the 12th:

I'm not a long hitter. I'm a highly skilled golfer (+1 to +3 index), but I only average about 265-270 off the tee. However, I do play with several guys that regularly outdrive me by 30-40 yards. If I were one of them, I would NEVER lay up on number 12. Why? Because I have a much better chance of making birdie from green high than from 90 yards away, no matter where the pin is!

Now for a player like myself, I have to weigh the options. If I hit a PERFECT drive, then I end up right up by the green. If I pull my shot, then I'm left with a potentially difficult bunker shot if I miss left. When I played the hole, I went for the green and pulled my tee shot a bit left into the bunker area. It skipped through and ended up between two of the bunkers in an unkept area and I was able to get on the green and two putt for par.

Two of my buddies drove the ball well OVER the green and had to chip back to the front pin placement! If I have their length, that's what I do every time!

[A_Clay_Man]

14 requires a good drive,

Lynn, What do you consider to be a good drive on 14? Anywhere on the fairway, or closer to the green?

[TEPaul]

"Tom:
Just because "wide right" is never a good option on that hole for Shivas or Matt Ward, doesn't mean that it's not often a good option for the 15-handicaps who frequent the course."

TomD:

I realize that, and completely. But how can you deny the hole would be even better and more interesting if it could somehow induce that option for the long crowd now and then (certain pins)?

I mean, I'm pretty sure everyone who tried to develop this overall (and very interesting) concept thought about that. I sure know I did, but I just could never figure out what could be done on that green that would sort of insure that option would be considered in various situations (particular pins). I thought of every imaginable shape contour, slope, whatever, and I just have never thought of anything that would seem to work that well to that effect.

I've never even seen the green in person but last night I was wondering what the effect would be if the green had a fair sized "roll" right across the front of it. But I can't imagine if or how that would produce the desired option of the long crowd playing right with a particular pin.

There is a hole at Mountain Lake that doesn't have a roll in front just a big downslope and I sure do know I'd prefer to stay back some if the pin was right over it. Same basic idea.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Adam
A good drive on 14, by my definition, is on the fairway and less than 220 yards from the green.

Being the humble modest guy that he his, Shivas declines to state that after putting the clubs away for two months, partying well into the night at a wedding the night before, he was first off the next morning and played extremely well.  In fact, he had a constrained style to his game and swing.  I didn't recognize him for a while.

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas - I share that approach re tee decisions - I've never seen much worth in taking a large risk just to get a wedge in hand - but that's likely because I suck as much with wedge as I do 7-8 iron - there is literally zero difference in results from those distances for me.  Might that factor into your thinking as well?  

I will take some risk to get near a green where I can pitch of chip or putt...

But that's all fine and dandy.  I want YOUR take on how Rustic falls overall.

As for me, I must assume David O. had a horrid Pebble Beach experience if he puts Rustic as an equal there.  I guess if you spent $400+ and the round took 6 hours plus at Pebble, Rustic at app. $50 playing fast looks pretty great as a "golf experience".  So I can live with that.  But to compare the two courses outside of this... well... as much as I do love Rustic - and I do - it is no Pebble Beach.  Methinks this is what Mr. Huntley is getting at.

Nor is it the equal of Riviera, I don't think - but I haven't played Riv in about 20 years - has today's Riv fallen that far?

As for the others, I can say with all honesty I agree with David O. that Rustic is superior to each SoCal course he lists - can't comment on Pinehurst, never been there - with the possible exception of Rancho Santa Fe CC - that's a tall statement because RSF is one fantastic course.  But it is arguable... which of course is a great testament to Rustic.

Shivas - what do you think?  And more importantly, how did the bets go?

 

[David Ober]

Okay, okay, it's time to put the "Rustic is equal to Pebble" thing to rest.

I would rather play Pebble than Rustic, plain and simple. However, I was so blown away by the Rustic experience that it made an indelible mark on my golfing soul, mainly because it is so DIFFERENT than most SoCal golf. But not just different, really: BETTER. More options. More character. More FUN.

And that, ultimately, is why I play golf. I want to compete, sure, but I really want to enjoy the game -- and Rustic allowed me to do that.

[Brian Noser]

Cant wait the count down is on. All this talk of Rustic is making the countdown harder.

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

Very cool.  Rustic is different from the normal SoCal fare without a doubt - and that word "different" does indeed equal "better."  Ed Getka is no fool to call it his home course, living 350 miles away.  We really have nothing like it here in NorCal either.

But you can understand the raised eyebrows here when you compare it to Pebble.  

You and I are completely copacetic when it comes to the goal of golf:  it it's not to have fun, what is it?  And hell yes, if one can't have fun at Rustic, one can't have fun anywhere.

Brian N. - all this talk is making me want to make a Getka-esque trip also... I need to see the re-done, post-disaster course... not sure when I can make that happen, though.

TH

[Dan Moore]

I will be playing Rustic for the first time Wednesday at 7:00 am.  I'm looking forward to it even though I'll be playing with rented clubs and haven't swung a club since early Nov.  Should be fun.  

[ed_getka]

Tom Paul,
   You will have to see #12 green in person to believe it. One of the best on the course. I most definitely would not think of putting a roll in the front or any other change. Playing wide right to get a full shot is questionable I think to get to an upper pin. You are talking about a very small effective target with normally firm greens and the canyon effect wanting to pull your approach down off the green to the right. I know for myself personally I can't generate enough spin to hold that green with a full shot. For me it is MUCH easier to pitch and run the ball up the slope on the left and let the canyon effect slide my ball right towards the hole. Some may think the tee shot needs more challenge (I do), but nobody will ever think there needs to be more challenge on the approach shot (no matter how close they are).

Tom H,
    Good thing you didn't come down to join us, the wind was howling. We only played 18 as it was impossible to keep our balls to keep from blowing off the green, unless we did our March of the Penguins routing right behind the ball to block the wind. One time David Moriarty left a little gap between his legs and created a wind tunnel effect, you should have seen how fast that ball moved.

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