[wsmorrison]

Cabell,

Let's see if we can rectify that this year.  If you can get on the team for the Flynn Invitational, we can take care of half the equation.  I think Jeff Williams has been the team captain.  As you know, the club did not participate last year.  The year before Jeff, Pierce Walmsey, Bill King and Jon Hardacre were on the squad.

Or just come up to Philadelphia sometime in the spring and we can do the grand tour!  I will be down this year to finally see CCV, and will arrange around your schedule.  

I'll go back and look at Flynn's drawings for the current 10th and 13th holes.  Thanks for the look.

[mark chalfant]

Wayne, could you and others help me complete this back 9 with some choices from Indian Creek, CC of York,Elyria, Philmont , Mannies or Pepper Pike Mens.  thanks

10
11 Rolling Green
12
13
14
15  CC  Cleveland
16  Philadelphia
17
18

[mark chalfant]

Wayne,  Mayday, and Craig R...., would you assist me refine my back nine.  thanks

[mike_malone]

 Mark,

  If it should be the numbered hole at the course, I would go with #14 RG.

[wsmorrison]

Sorry, Mark.  I didn't see your post.  If I were going to go with one from the back 9 at TCC in Pepper Pike, I would go with 17 over the great 15th.  The 17th is as good a golf hole as you would want.  It would be a blast to play over and over again.  Heck, I'd go out to Cleveland to play that one hole...and maybe say hi to a few friends.

Here's your front 9:

1 CC  Cleveland    4
2 Mannies            4
3 Philadelphia      5
4 Lancaster          4
5 Shinnecock        5
6 Kitansett          4
7 Spring Mill          3
8 Mannies            3
9 Rolling Green      5

Let's see now, should I follow my own rules and not include any courses from your front 9 with the Shinnecock exception rule in play   or should I go with courses you've seen?  Let me take a stab at it with courses you've seen first:

10 Lancaster CC
11 Merion (it probably was Flynn's design), but Kittansett, Huntingdon Valley and Shinneock Hills are world-beaters
12 Philadelphia CC
13 Cascades
14 Shinnecock Hills
15 Rolling Green
16 A tie between Philadelphia Country and Manufacturers with Kittansett a half-step behind.  If you forced me, I'd take PCC
17 TCC-Pepper Pike
18 Rolling Green But only as a par 4.  If not, Huntingdon Valley

[redanman]

10 has to be Lehigh, mark c

and 15 LCC beats 15 RG, Wayne  

[Phil Benedict]

Wayne,

Sometime back in the early '60's Sports Illustrated did a "best 18 holes" in America.  First story of its kind, at least in my experience.  Think it was a Dan Jenkins piece.  Merion #1 was the first hole on this hypothetical course.  I think the Quarry hole was 16 as well.  Jenkins ranked Merion as the top course at the time, I guess because it was the only course with 2 holes of the 18.  Also scene of Hogan's most memorable win, and Jenkins was a Hogan groupie.

Funny how we remember stuff like this.  The cover photo was the first hole at Merion.

[wsmorrison]

BillV,

I had the tenth at Lehigh as my selection, so I chose a different one for Mark.  As for 15 Lehigh vs. 15 Rolling Green, come on...they are both short par 4s, but really now.  Lehigh's over Rolling Green?  Pass me that stuff your smokin'  

Phil,

I saw the magazine on eBay and bought it.  It only had the first nine holes, I haven't seen the second edition which had 10-18.  I think I'll start checking again.  Thanks for the jog to my memory, such as it is.

[Phil Benedict]

Wayne,

I was wrong about Merion #1 being on the cover.  It was Seminole #6.  I found the issue on SI.Com.

Possible thread for this site is to go back over Jenkins selections, see how they have withstood the test of time.

Just a thought.

[wsmorrison]

Great idea, Phil.  It should be on a separate thread because Flynn never seems to inspire broad interest, I guess because so many never see/play his courses.  In any case, I think it would be fun to do so.  All I know is the first nine.  Will you do the honors?

[Phil Benedict]

I'll try to find out what the back nine was.  Vaguely remember Augusta "12, Pebble Beach "18, but the rest of the nine escapes me.  I may be wrong about the Quarry hole but there was another Merion hole on the back nine - maybe the hole Bobby Jones wrapped up the Grand Slam on.

What made the article so interesting at the time was the fact most of the early holes were so unfamiliar.  They only televised 3 or 4 holes.

[wsmorrison]

Here's the front nine from the September 15, 1965 Sports Illustrated.  I expect this list and whatever the back nine is to spark some conversation.

1.  Merion East 360/4
2.  Scioto 436/4
3.  Olympic 220/3
4.  Bultusrol 183/3
5.  Colonial 459/4
6.  Seminole 388/4
7.  Pine Valley 570/5
8.  Prarie Dunes 424/4
9.  Champions 538/5

By the way, the bunkers shown in the cover photo of the 6th at Seminole are pretty awful.  I hope they aren't maintained that way today.  Doubtful that they represented the original intent.

[redanman]

As for 15 Lehigh vs. 15 Rolling Green

Lehigh's over Rolling Green?  Pass me that stuff your smokin'  

I've a word for you..
HOMER!  

The front half of LCC #15 green is absolutely sublime.  The hole is a reverse angle dog-leg, one of TEP's favorites - both style and hole and that green on #15 at RG, where else is there a green like that that Flynn built?  Is that today really original? Let's not even get into the tee shot on #15 at RGArboretum.

p.s. Just a friendly ball-busting by a couple of Flynn guys.....

(You did tell me to jump right in)


addendum:  IMO the best holes at LCC, in no particular order are 10, 14 (Really exciting tree work recently.  The green will actually get sunlight now.), 15, 8, 3, 13, 5  and perhaps #8 and #2 .  

Worst is clearly #11.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne, Bill,

Weren't there originally TWO greens on 15 at RG?

[Mark_Fine]

Look for that "worst" hole at Lehigh to be written up in the March or April issue of Philadelphia Golf Magazine as one of the area's best risk/reward par fives  

[wsmorrison]

"The front half of LCC #15 green is absolutely sublime."

Well, at least it has that going for it    Tree clearing on 15 at RGGC has uncovered the original intent and it is terrific.  I still like hitting out of a chute (although it is no longer a doughnunt hole) where shaping the shot is key. Then the uphill nature of the approach with fabulous bunkering.  The green is original and two-tiered with a giant boulder the primary reason for the two levels.

Kyle,

Yes there was a second green for a time in the 1930s in the area where they do burning of leaves and branches.  I'll post a photo in a bit...gotta walk the dog and take the big guy to school.

[Doug Wright]

Wayne,

I think you'll be impressed with Cherry Hills #14 when you see it next year. One of my favourite par 4s anywhere.

[redanman]

Philadelphia Golf Magazine   (Hole #11..... ad nauseum)

Unreliable at best, an awful magazine, a shill if you will.  I remember that you have had your name in it at least 20 times in the last two years!  

Risk/Reward, perhaps, but honestly the definition of "Good" in the GAP among the rank and file is a little skewed toward only accommodating the best players - a clearly faulty logic if you ask me.  Problem hte risk reward is all predicate on one shot allowing the chance for the risk reward, otherwise wholly mundane and a slog at times.

That said, I eagled it last year 3 times and should have twice more, especially against Dave Cox when I hit 9-iron in in a Prez Cup match.    

Mark, let's not do this again.  I will get to work on and post MY Home Course profile for a unique gca.com first!  Then we'll be all-pissed-out.  

[Mark_Fine]

Doug,
Superb hole.  Modeled after #13 at PV.

Bill,
If #11 at Lehigh is a slog, what would you call #7 at Pine Valley - unplayable?  At least the weaker golfer at Lehigh can finish the hole    

There is nothing wrong with a hole that is designed to be more exciting for a better player.  Some of the greatest holes on the planet would sadly be considered "unfair" my many golfers.

Mark

[wsmorrison]

Doug,

Thanks for the tip.  There are a lot of holes I'm looking forward to seeing in Denver...more than 18 at any rate  

Looking forward to your comments on and possible additions to DCC chapter.

Here's Flynn's drawing of the 14th at Cherry Hills:

[wsmorrison]

Unlike PV, it looks like there was little room to run a shot into this green.  If I'm not mistaken, I think Crump wanted to put a bunker on the right side of 13 to encourage the aerial approach.  If he didn't, it sure looks like Flynn did.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
The way to play this hole is to run the ball onto the green, similar to the way many golfers play #13 at PV.  The hole didn't quite come out just like it was drawn.  Also the fairway hazard was never built as best anyone can tell.  It never showed up in any old aerials or photos nor did the interrupted fairways.  If they were ever incorporated into the design, they didn't last long and would be goofy to re-establish.  My guess is that they could have been designed due to water issues which was a concern back then.  Remember, the location is essentially high desert.  Average rainfall is less than 10 inches a year.  
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

Here is an interesting comparison.  

[Mark_Fine]

More photos



Cherry Hills #14



Pine Valley #13

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