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mike_malone

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A lot going on , but just short of too much...
« on: February 01, 2006, 06:22:16 PM »
 Scotland Run is an interesting course located in New Jersey, a few miles from Pine Valley. It is built in and around a sand quarry. This is used in some fun ways throughout.


   #12 has a lot going on , but I think it does not go over the top.

    It is 465 yards from the back; it doglegs gently left. It has a huge landing area with most of it right of where you want to go. Some of the features are as follows:

    An elevated tee----a water hazard right of the fairway that extends out to 180 yards from the tee-----mounds leading down to a long waste bunker on the left--a 50 yard long "mohawk" bunker starts on the right after the water ( It is an inverted bunker with fine fescue tuffs along the top )----an undulating fairway with maybe too many drainage areas---after the mohawk water begins again on the right which leads to a multiple bunker complex on the right of the green--well left of the green is a 20 foot hill, covered with fescue----than there is a plateau area just short of the green on the left which slopes right down to the green front---the green has two tiers and a ridge that bisects the upper tier. To top it all off is a sand wall some ten yards in back of the green that rises straight up for six feet+-.

    I love this hole because the scale of it makes all this architectural busyness work.


    Can you think of holes that go to the edge but don't go over the top.

   Scotlandrun.com for course views.

   
« Last Edit: February 01, 2006, 06:25:01 PM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

JNC Lyon

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Re:A lot going on , but just short of too much...
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2006, 10:10:47 PM »
#8 at Mill Creek in Rochester, NY.  It is a short par, with a huge fairway filled with three large bunkers, creating excellent strategy.  These bunkers couple with a creek running diagonally along the left side, creating a heroic forced carry for those who want to go for the green.  The green slopes from hard from right to left (or front to back, depending on a player's position off the tee).  Furthermore, there is a pond partially hidden behind the green to catch the ball of any player who is too bold.  I wish I had a photo to post, but it is definitely a fun par four, one with lots of decisions to be made on every shot.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

mike_malone

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Re:A lot going on , but just short of too much...
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2006, 10:34:52 PM »
That's what I'm talkin' 'bout !
AKA Mayday

Doug Siebert

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Re:A lot going on , but just short of too much...
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2006, 11:46:52 PM »
#9 at Finkbine GC in Iowa City, IA

Its a 449 yard par 4 from the tips, playing into the prevailing wind, and the fairway is probably 50 feet above the level of the tee.  The tee itself is offset to the right at about a 20* angle from the direction of the fairway.

There are two bunkers right, with the longest requiring about a 240 yard carry (used to be damn near impossible if there was any wind at all when they built that tee in the early 90s)  There are some moguls in the left rough which is where even the slightest pull or draw will end up, and its just up to the luck of the draw what kind of stance and lie you'll end up with there.

There's also a few large trees around the 150-160 mark from the green just left of the fairway, if you hit it too far left (or just plain too far playing for a fade that doesn't take) you get behind them and have one of those annoying shots calling for a PW trajectory and 6i distance.

To the right are an assortment of trees, including two massive and annoying evergreens with branches down to the ground which need a tree removal program ASAP.  They are so large that if you get directly under them your only option is taking unplayable and moving back between your ball and the flag, and then probably laying up and hoping to get up and down for bogey.

Assuming you negotiate all this and hit a good drive in the fairway, you may still have a mid to long iron if the wind is up very much, to a well sloped green where left is dead, and a good portion of the front right part of the green is a false front.  It is birdieable with two excellent shots, but everyone is always happy to walk away with a par.  However, double bogies can occur quite easily without requiring any one shot to be particularly bad, the hole just does a very good job of punishing the indifferent or poorly planned shot.

That's why I really like this hole.  It is easy to build a hole that's really damn hard that beats you over the head with water, OB, or lost balls, where shots are of a pass/fail nature.  I much prefer holes with large grey areas where one bad shot probably won't give you a double bogey, but starting off with 3 shots that aren't that good but really aren't that bad just might.

The ideal play (at least for me) is to hit it straight over the far bunker to get on the right edge the fairway, or even in the right rough, so that my angle points me at the left side of the green.  I used to try to fade it in, but its just not worth it with a ball that allows me to just carry that bunker except for days when the south wind is blowing in at 25 mph or more.  Being on the right side of the fairway is desireable here because the angle of the green is such that if I yank it, it'll come up more short left than left and leave me a fighting chance for an up and down.  I'm also coming directly at the most severe slope of the false front portion of the green, which minimizes the chance of a shot that's slightly cut grabbing that slope and falling off the green.  The rough there is really gnarly from all the people playing slices ending up there all day long so its really hit or miss what kind of a lie you get.


My hovercraft is full of eels.

Andy Scanlon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A lot going on , but just short of too much...
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2006, 08:16:47 AM »
Scotland Run is an interesting course located in New Jersey, a few miles from Pine Valley. It is built in and around a sand quarry. This is used in some fun ways throughout.


   #12 has a lot going on , but I think it does not go over the top.

    It is 465 yards from the back; it doglegs gently left. It has a huge landing area with most of it right of where you want to go. Some of the features are as follows:

    An elevated tee----a water hazard right of the fairway that extends out to 180 yards from the tee-----mounds leading down to a long waste bunker on the left--a 50 yard long "mohawk" bunker starts on the right after the water ( It is an inverted bunker with fine fescue tuffs along the top )----an undulating fairway with maybe too many drainage areas---after the mohawk water begins again on the right which leads to a multiple bunker complex on the right of the green--well left of the green is a 20 foot hill, covered with fescue----than there is a plateau area just short of the green on the left which slopes right down to the green front---the green has two tiers and a ridge that bisects the upper tier. To top it all off is a sand wall some ten yards in back of the green that rises straight up for six feet+-.

    I love this hole because the scale of it makes all this architectural busyness work.


    Can you think of holes that go to the edge but don't go over the top.

   Scotlandrun.com for course views.

   


Mayday:  

I have to disagree with you about #12 at Scotland Run.  I think the green puts that hole over the top into the too much category.  I think the green on 12 is much better suited to something like the 6th, 11th or 13th holes, where one (almost always) has a short iron/wedge in hand.
All architects will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that be in golf finally solve the ball problem. If the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8000 yard courses.  
- William Flynn, golf architect, 1927

mike_malone

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Re:A lot going on , but just short of too much...
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2006, 09:14:51 AM »
 Andy,

   I wonder if Mr. Kay wanted to encourage a running shot here. I certainly need to do that. But I can see how you come to that conclusion.I only play here in the winter so I probably don't get the firmest conditions.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 09:16:41 AM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A lot going on , but just short of too much...
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2006, 09:56:56 AM »
 It certainly makes sense that when there is a lot going on that some see it as too much. This is where personal opinion comes into play. It is almost like the opposite--not much going on but just enough---- which also brings out biases.
AKA Mayday

Andy Scanlon

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Re:A lot going on , but just short of too much...
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2006, 10:29:49 AM »
Andy,

   I wonder if Mr. Kay wanted to encourage a running shot here. I certainly need to do that. But I can see how you come to that conclusion.I only play here in the winter so I probably don't get the firmest conditions.

It is quite possible (probable?) that a running shot is intended as, if I remember correctly, the fairway slopes downhill into the front of the green to "aid" one's ball onto the green.  However, the severity of the slope which tiers the green in that horseshoe fashion requires a ball to be running at a pretty good pace in order roll up the tier to a back pin placement.
All architects will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that be in golf finally solve the ball problem. If the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8000 yard courses.  
- William Flynn, golf architect, 1927

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A lot going on , but just short of too much...
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2006, 10:35:54 AM »
 Andy,

    What I love about this hole is the plateau on the left just before the green that slopes down to the front of the green on the LEFT. The green is fairly flat on that left side. On the right it is crazier but that has an open view for the shot.
AKA Mayday