Most Balanced US Open Venue

[Dave Bourgeois]

After reading the back and forth on Torrey Pines, and some of the older threads dealing with the greens on Bethpage Black, I am curious to know what the members here believe to be the most architecturally balanced US Open course.

By this I mean that some courses have been characterized by the greens, other the length, others setup/conditioning, and others the setting.  What course has the best combination of all of these and can be the test the USGA wants, without resorting to a goofy setup?

I'd also like to hear what courses may fit the bill, are logistically possible but are not on the rotation.

*Disclaimer* If this has been beaten to death let me know and I'll delete to save the band width.

[Joel_Stewart]

My vote would be Olympic and Merion.  Both are not overly long but they both require excpetional shot values from every distance.

[PThomas]

but can we still count Merion, Joel, since it hasn't been tested there since 1980?

[wsmorrison]

Without question, at least in my mind, the most balanced and best US Open venue is Shinnecock Hills.

[Joel_Stewart]

Without question, at least in my mind, the most balanced and best US Open venue is Shinnecock Hills.

Wayne:

Its balanced not brutal.  

[SPDB]

Pinehurst.

[wsmorrison]

Joel,  

I think Shinnecock Hills is almost unique in its overall balance.  It is a fun course for average players (from the correct tees) and as challenging an Open course as exists in the US with complete balance.  

For the life of me I cannot figure out how Shinnecock Hills got this brutal stereotyped label.  I'm not sure what brutal is but if it means all the clubs in the bag, shot testing, aerial shot demands and ground and aerial approach options, wind, angles off tees, offset greens and other factors.  It is full of these sorts of features.  But it actually can accomodate a wide variety of players.  Not everyone is going to shoot their handicap but they can get around the course and enjoy themselves.  It is not as penal as people make it out to be.  I think it is a brand of Flynn architecture I call enjoyable difficulty.

The back tee of 18 at Merion is a different matter.  Some players cannot clear the quarry.  That is brutal.  I can clear the quarry but if I couldn't I would move up to tees where I could.  A low handicap player like Tom Paul could not play in a scratch tournament there because he simply cannot get out of the quarry.  But Merion is a terrific course for all types of players if played from the correct set of tees.  The difference with Shinnecock Hills is it can be played from all tees by all golfers.

What hole, from any tee, prevents a short hitter like Tom from playing around Shinnecock Hills?  In fact, if played from the right tees (as it was intended) Shinnecock Hills is a terrific course for all players at all skill levels.  This is the beauty of the design and one clearly misunderstood.

[PThomas]

fwiw, Shinny is Johnny Miller's favorite course

[wsmorrison]

Mine too, or couldn't you tell  

[Andy Scanlon]

Dave:

I think Oakmont has a pretty good combination of the attributes you describe.

[Tom Huckaby]

Wayne:

I'm among those that would give the "brutal" tag to Shinnecock.  I just really did find it to be far too difficult for me to ever expect any success on.  And why is this?

It's not the distance - although of course matters do get exacerbated the farther back one plays - it's the greens and green surrounds.

I just found those all to be SO penal that the course was more survival than fun.  Miss a green and you're lucky to get down in three - forget two.  Miss in the wrong place and you might as well pick up.

I do believe it is a truly GREAT golf course - I put it in my top 10 without a doubt.

But it is brutal.  If one wants to have fun, one goes across the street/down the road.

Sorry for the tangent off of this thread topic - but you asked....

TH

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Its not a tangent as far as I'm concerned.  I appreciate your input.  However, I don't see the greens as severe as you do.  They have complex slopes which make putting difficult and they have roll-offs which require precise approaches (and putts for that matter).  But they aren't contrived contours and they blend in naturally to the surroundings.  Greens such as those found at Pinehurst #2 are much less natural in appearance and far more penal.

I respect your characterization of SH as more survival than fun but I do not share that.  Neither has anyone I've ever played with there and that includes a fairly broad spectrum of length and ability.

"Miss a green and you're lucky to get down in three - forget two.  Miss in the wrong place and you might as well pick up.  "

I'm sorry, but I just have not seen these sorts of results.  And I miss plenty of greens.  They require skill, as any championship course should, but they do not demand miracles.  Part of the difficulty might be that you aren't used to Flynn greens.  They are hard to read, especially from fairways.  They take some getting used to because the complexities of slope aren't as apparent as are overt internal contours.  They may have a long learning curve but I don't see this as anything brutal.

I hope we hear from others.  Maybe I am once again in the minority.

[Tom Huckaby]

Wayne:

I played with Rich Goodale, Gene Greco and Geoffrey Childs.  We played the tips, and all of us suffered.  I believe it was Gene (but if Goodale reads this he'll surely take credit) who said:

"Shinnecock's no big deal - all it takes is perfect golf shots."

That applied primarily to shots into and around the greens.

So maybe it's our pedestrian short games, I don't know.  I just know that at one point in my life I did have a VERY good short game... and at my best, well I'm gonna stick with my assessment of the short game requirements.

BTW, I am not saying the green and surrounds aren't GREAT - they are.  I am just saying that they are very, very difficult.  Get them up to speed - as they were when I played there - and "brutal" is not too much of a stretch.

We all saw what happened when they get too firm and too fast, also... are occurrences like the last US Open really what golf is supposed to be about?

In any case, I sure as hell don't mean to denigrate the golf course - like I say, it remains solidly in my personal top 10.

I'm just also saying "brutal" is a fair characterization.

But hell, I've played the course but once - so take my words with an ocean of salt.

TH

[Joel_Stewart]

Wayne:

I'm not trying to bust your balls but have to agree with Huck here.   Although I agree that it may be the best Open site, I just see way too many holes at Shinny that are extreme.  As I have said before, I've never been able to hold the 10th green with a short iron and 11 is just over the top (for me)although watching the pros in the Open they didn't seem to have much of a problem.   #2 and #17 as par 3's are equally as hard and half the par 4's I'm hitting long irons into.  I would like to know what Tom Pauls average score is there.

[wsmorrison]

"We all saw what happened when they get too firm and too fast, also... are occurrences like the last US Open really what golf is supposed to be about?"

NOT AT ALL!  In my mind they took the best Open venue and took it slightly over the edge, but the resulting fall was long and hard.  Not what golf should be at all.

"In any case, I sure as hell don't mean to denigrate the golf course - like I say, it remains solidly in my personal top 10."

Tom, I never took your assessment as a denigration of the golf course.  It was meant to be a championship test of golf but I just think it is not just that and can play for a variety of games.  Heck, I've seen little old ladies having a blast out there and getting around the greens just fine.

I hope you get the chance to play it again.  Fair for now for you to label it brutal.  Let's see if that changes.  And if you are in Southampton someday, you ain't that far from Philadelphia.  So drop by.  It may take you a god awful long time due to that ridiculous LI traffic though.  It'll be worth it.

[wsmorrison]

Joel,

If Tom does post his scores there, be wary.  He has one of the great short games I've ever seen.  No fooling.  He has real talent around the greens.  You just wouldn't want his drives    His long irons are a thing of beauty too.  With his length off the tee they better be  

Hopefully when Craig Disher gets back from his golf game he'll weigh in (all 135 lbs of him) on how his game suited the course.

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks, Wayne.

Believe it or not, my one time out at Southampton started in Philadelphia - I drove from Phil. out there.  Oh yes it took a LONG time - especially getting lost.

 

In any case, I will certainly defer as you know the course FAR better than I do.  But man the short game requirements were tough.  Oh I don't doubt old ladies can and do have fun at Shinnecock... but they don't expect to get down in less than four from off the green.

 

[Phil Benedict]

In some ways I think Pinehurst is the least balanced because so much depends on what happens on and around the greens.  Ball-striking is secondary.  For example, Payne Stewart had the best putting round I ever saw (final round in '99), that is until Retief at Shinnecock.  Tiger was clearly the best ball-striker last year but lost it on the greens.  Campbell may not have been up to Payne's standard in '99 but he made some putts.

It's hard hit greens in regulation at Pinehurst because the target areas are so small.  Balls that land in different spots end up in the same place.

[Glenn Spencer]

I thought Congressional played well. I think Oakmont does what it needs to do for an Open. Olympic lets everyone  have a chance. I think Winged Foot will be the best however.

[Wayne Freeman]

Glenn- you beat me to the punch on this one.  It's Winged Foot for me. Embodies just the best of everything Open.  Great venue, great holes, great atmosphere.  I've also always liked Shinny, O Club, Bethpage, Oakmont, Riviera, Southern Hills..  
   The most impressive prior Open courses I've played that are now too short for modern events are Interlachen, St. Louis CC, Canterbury.
   Best previous Open course that I still think could be put back in the rotation is Inverness.

[Glenn Spencer]

Wayne- You stole some of my thunder as well, I think Canterbury is a fabulous club and I am still waiting for the US Amateur to be played there again with qualifying also taking place at The Country Club. St. Louis I have not played, but from what I have seen I am quite sure that I would love that place. I thought #10 at Canterbury was a great short little par 4. The Ohio Am is there this year so that will be a treat.

Glenn