Small greens

[Dan_Callahan]

Are there any modern architects who are known for building small greens? Current vogue seems to be massive greens with lots of movement. I remember the first time I played at Yale thinking those were the biggest greens I had ever seen. You could fit at least two Yale greens onto a typical Mike Strantz green at RNK.

Seems to me one of the reasons Pebble is tricky is because it has relatively tiny greens that are hard to hit in the wind. The only new course I have seen that takes pride in some of its small greens is Shelter Harbor in RI. This Hurdzan-Fry course has one green that is about the size of a hubcap and, if memory serves, is partially blind and somewhat of a punchbowl. Many other greens on the course are pretty big.

Are small greens out of fashion? You certainly never hear PR people bragging about a course's tiny greens that way you do about really large greens.

I'd also be interested to know what course has the smallest greens and if that is seen as an asset or liability (i.e., do people like the challenge or prefer shooting at larger targets).

[Voytek Wilczak]

Dan:

Cupp and Kite made tiny greens at Liberty National in Jersey City. 3000 sf average if memory serves. The site is windy, too, right on the New York Bay. Your comment about Pebble made me wonder if Cupp and Kite have drawn their inspiration from there. Cupp even said that 18th at LN is kind of a mirror image of 18th at Pebble, but 1 stroke shorter.

[Glenn Spencer]

I think Pete Dye has built some small greens. I don't know if you would call him modern or not though.

[Pete Lavallee]

I was rereading Tom Doak's Anatomy of a Golf Course this weekend and he states the limits commonly accepted today for green size. If I recall correctly he said 4000 sf was the minimum he would consider to properly spread out wear and tear. He did say you could go smaller on a private course which wouldn't experience as many rounds.

He also mentioned the need for any alternate green at #8 on Pine Valley. That green measures 3000 sf as does the alternate. Ironically he states there would be more pin positions on one 4000 sf green than on two 3000 sf greens; because of the limitations of not being able to cut the pin within 10 feet of the greens edge.

I love small greens too, but they only seem practical at private clubs with limited play.

[Bob_Huntley]

Pete,

The Raynor designed Dunes Course at MPCC had very small greens, which made such a short course a wonderful challenge. Apparently this was the antithesis of the usual designs of the Raynor/ Macdonald school, as mentioned in your comments on Yale.

Bob

[Ron Farris]

At the Golf Club at Red Rock (#33 in 2205 Best New Public) we averaged right at 4000 sq. ft. for the greens.  However, we have one green just under 10,000 sq. ft.  With a great superintendent, moderate rounds of golf, and a good climate one can pull it off.  Small greens are harder to hit when dealing with elevation changes in a windy environmnet like the Black Hills.  We tried to build the big greens for big shots and the little greens for ----well you know --- that dreaded flip wedge.

[Glenn Spencer]

Huntington Country Club on Long Island has the smallest set of 18 greens that I have ever seen and if there were 18 smaller on a real good golf course, I would be absolutely shocked. Their biggest green is average at best.

[Jerry Lemons]

I wish we could build more small greens but the number of rounds new courses expect puts too much demand on the soils and turf for small green to be practical. Only new exclusive clubs could have a chance of making small greens work in most areas of the country. Remember, the smaller the green, the less undulations to have enough fair pin placements.
What size is small? Anything under 3500-4000 would be small in todays standard.
I aggree that anything smaller puts too much pressure on the pay and the Supt.

Jerry

[Andy Troeger]

I think Pete Dye has built some small greens. I don't know if you would call him modern or not though.

Harbour Town has very small greens, and is considered modern by at least one magazine since it was build after 1960. Its hard to believe from watching on TV just how tiny #18 green is, especially when you're out in the fairway!

Smallest greens I've ever seen was a Joe Lee course in Clermont, FL called Palisades. Some of those things were almost impossible to hit! I dont know square footage but they were tiny!

[A.G._Crockett]

Settindown Creek in Roswell, GA, a Cupp course that hosted the USGA Women's Am this past summer, as well as several Nike Tour Championships, has a number of relatively small greens.  They are all, however, very interesting, and don't "play" small due to the contours, if that makes any sense.

[Jerry Lemons]

Some greens do get smaller year after year from Supt's not mowing the greens to the areas they are designed. I have seen greens move in on courses as much as 30 feet. Bermudagrass encroachment is a big issue where it grows.

Some courses would do themselves justice to probe (sand USGA greens) and find the edges and restore what was built initially.

[Dan_Callahan]

I was thinking of small greens solely from a strategic standpoint. I never stopped to consider the practical considerations such as wear and tear from heavy traffic. That makes a lot of sense and would explain the trend.

Which leads to the question: Why don't we see more tiny greens on new private courses that expect to have small memberships?

When I saw that tiny green at Shelter Harbor, I was struck by how it added a new dimension to the hole. I know consitency is important in design, but the juxtaposition of a large green followed by small was interesting.

[Pete Lavallee]

Dan,

Gil Hanse is not afraid to build some small greens; I bet you'll find a few at Boston Golf Club.

[Dan_Callahan]

Pete,

Boston Golf Club is a few miles from where my parents live and where I grew up. I'm embarrased to say I have yet to get over there and look around. I haven't seen Silva's Black Rock (which is a neighbor to BCC) yet either. Hopefully this summer I will have some time to take a look.

[Mark_F]

Dan,

Small greens are out of fashion because modern club golfers like to follow in their favourite pro's footsteps and keep track of their greens in reg stats.

Also, most of them have spent so much money on that new bazooka driver, they neglect to practice their short games, and feel it is grossly unfair to place so much emphasis on that aspect of the game.