Should a National Champion be able to stop a shot on a firm green from 220 yds..

[John Kavanaugh]

Is there value in holes designed for only the best in the game...

[Jerry Lemons]

With todays' equipment it is quite easy for the PGA proffesionals to stop a shot from 220.

That is not such a easy task for the higher handicap players from that distance.

The course does have less to do with it today as the equipment is so much better.


If any level of player hits a good shot on a par three from the right tee, it should end up on the green.

your ?... Is there value in holes designed for only the best in the game?

I think there should never be a hole that does not allow enough tees so it would be considered to have been designed for only the best player.

[Rick Shefchik]

I don't think anyone can stop a shot from 220 yards on a firm green, if it's truly firm (and not enormously deep) -- that is, if by stop, you mean landing it on the green first. Nor should anyone be able to.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jerry,

Are the blades Tiger current play that much better than what Nicklaus played in 76.  No matter how great the modern ball may be I can't believe it stops on a firm green any better than a Titleist balata.

I see you are in Nashville,  have you made it up to Victoria National..cause the 14th is a 470 yd par 4 that is only two putt parable for the highest level of player..which I of course think is perfectly fine by me.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think anyone can stop a shot from 220 yards on a firm green, if it's truly firm (and not enormously deep) -- that is, if by stop, you mean landing it on the green first. Nor should anyone be able to.

Rick,

I don't suppose you have ever seen a young touring pro hit a 5 iron as high and soft as a dream.   Nicklaus used to hit his long irons just that way.

[TEPaul]

Of course a national champion should be able to stop a ball on a (firm) green from 220 yards. Ideally I don't think he should be able to stop it dead and certainly not suck it back but he should be able to stop it on the green surface.

The best indication of the ideal firmness of a green would be when a really well struck 9 iron from the fairway by the national champion would only lightly dent the green and definitely not pull up any dirt with the pitch mark.

[DMoriarty]

John, whether or not a pro can stop a ball from 220 depends of course on circumstances such as green contouring, lie, and wind, etc.  

As to your second question-- whether there is value in holes designed for only the best in the game-- I guess that would depend upon who you are.  The best in the game might find value in such a hole, but I am not sure what purpose the hole serves to the other 99.99% percent of us.  

Furtunately for the rest of us, your question contains a hidden presumption which is false.    You assume that designing "only" for the best in the game is the only way to challenge the best in the game.  That  is not the case.   A good designer ought to be able to design for the best of the game without the rest of us being relegated to the clubhouse.  

[cary lichtenstein]

Has to be a par 5, so the rest of us are hitting wedges

Who cares about the pros, they play a different game and if they can't stop it from 220, they need to buy a 7 or 11  wood

[John Kavanaugh]

David,

What is wrong with having a par 4 that the majority of us just bogey and get on with our lives.  Why does everyone need an option to succeed when they don't put in the work to get better.  I think the 14th at Victoria National is a perfect example where the tees stretch from 340 to 470 yds.  The hole can be played with a putter as there are no forced carries but because of the downslope from 200 to 100 yds and an elevated green the hole is really only for the elite player to par from any tee.  What is so bad about a little difficultly now and then.  How many birdies am I a six handicap entitled too...or you, or anyone else for that matter.

[JNC Lyon]

I totally agree that there should be a few difficult holes now and then, some to make the best players whine a little.  If you can't hold the green, then it's probably because you played the incorrect shot.  If there is no way you can hit the green from 220, lay up.  I would love to see a couple of par fours that were difficult enough to make a great player lay up, as I have to deal with laying up on every 400+ par four!

[Glenn Spencer]

If St. Andrews is the home of golf, then I think we can safely say that golf was not meant to be easy. My grandfather just turned 91 and he still plays the back tees at his club. I like that logic, it is not the golf courses fault if you can't play it. I wish I could have walked out to the pitchers mound and asked that guy to stop throwing those damn curve balls!!

[Steve Pieracci]

David,

What is wrong with having a par 4 that the majority of us just bogey and get on with our lives.  Why does everyone need an option to succeed when they don't put in the work to get better.  I think the 14th at Victoria National is a perfect example where the tees stretch from 340 to 470 yds.  The hole can be played with a putter as there are no forced carries but because of the downslope from 200 to 100 yds and an elevated green the hole is really only for the elite player to par from any tee.  What is so bad about a little difficultly now and then.  How many birdies am I a six handicap entitled too...or you, or anyone else for that matter.

John,
I am in favor of difficult holes.  I have never played Victoria, but I suspect most could make par by playing TGG or playing to a position to make par with a well played 3rd.  

Ditto the reward for working to get better.  After playing with you at Midpines, I believe if you put in the work, you could hit a high 220 yard fade that lands softly.   The beauty is that if the difficult holes have the options to make par, then I don't need to spend time learning that 220 yard high fade.  I can spend time practicing higher percentage shots that I will utilize in more situations.  

[DMoriarty]

David,

What is wrong with having a par 4 that the majority of us just bogey and get on with our lives.  Why does everyone need an option to succeed when they don't put in the work to get better.

Barney, where did I say that there is anything wrong with a par 4 where the majority of us just should be thrilled with bogey???  I doubt I ever said that, and I certainly did not say it on this thread.   On some of my favorite holes I have only a very slim chance of making par and would normally be quite satisfied with a bogey.  

I think the 14th at Victoria National is a perfect example where the tees stretch from 340 to 470 yds.  The hole can be played with a putter as there are no forced carries but because of the downslope from 200 to 100 yds and an elevated green the hole is really only for the elite player to par from any tee.  What is so bad about a little difficultly now and then.  How many birdies am I a six handicap entitled too...or you, or anyone else for that matter.

You've added something to this example that was notably missing from your original question.  You were talking about holes designed exclusively for elite players, yet now you switched to holes which anyone can play but only elite players will par.

Well it is often the case, on well designed holes, elite players are the only ones with a fair chance of making pars.  Yet those holes are also designed for the non-elites.   Take the road hole-- only the best of the best will par it regularly, yet there are options for all of us to do the best we can with it.   CPC 16 is another example.   Elite players will be going for par, while lesser players would do better to forget about birdie and play for a bogey or a lucky one putt par.  

So, in answer to your question I would say that I am not entitled to any birdies, or pars for that matter.  (If I was so entitled, then huge reparations are in order.)   But I am still a golfer and prefer golf holes that provide me with fun and challenging shots and choices, no matter what my ultimate score.  

By the way, I am not at all familiar with the hole you describe but it sounds to me like it was not designed "only" for the elite player.  If it was so designed then one could not play it with a putter-- in fact there would be no fairway at all for the first 270 yards.  Nor would their be any need to have anything but the furthest back tee.  

PD No. 4 is another good example of a hole where only an elite player has any right to expect par, yet it is still a great hole and quite playable (not in par) for the rest of us.  

[Jerry Lemons]

Are the blades Tiger current play that much better than what Nicklaus played in 76.



 No matter how great the modern ball may be I can't believe it stops on a firm green any better than a Titleist balata.




I see you are in Nashville,  have you made it up to Victoria National..cause the 14th is a 470 yd par 4 that is only two putt parable for the highest level of player..which I of course think is perfectly fine by me.

 

Yes they are better, to what degree, I am not a club expert to say.

Maybe true, consider that more people have better training today than ever before. Everyone has a Jim Flick or David Ledbetter quality coach teaching them how to hit high long irons that stop on a dime.

Firmness of greens is a relative term too. It was not until 2 years ago that a tool was used to measure firmness. We really don't have a guage as to how firm those greens were back then.

Weather and water management would have as much of an impact during each round.

PLayed VN last year, twice in one day from the mid and then back tees. 83 both times. The 14th is a tough hole. MAde 5 twice!

[Jerry Lemons]

I totally agree that there should be a few difficult holes now and then... If you can't hold the green, then it's probably because you played the incorrect shot.  If there is no way you can hit the green from 220...

Difficult holes are great and are fun when we par or birdie them.

A good player will recognize when a high soft shot on a firm shallow green is impossible and play the long bump and run or brilliantly play for a par by a short shot a chip and a putt.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jerry,

If you drove from Nashville, played 36 and drove back home it was indeed a monster day...as a matter of fact 36 any day is huge.  Anytime you want to come back or bring up some friends let me know.

I'm curious...Bogeys ain't your worst hole when you're stringling together a couple of 83's...which hole presented you with the most problems at VN..

[Jerry Lemons]

Jerry,

If you drove from Nashville, played 36 and drove back home it was indeed a monster day...as a matter of fact 36 any day is huge.  Anytime you want to come back or bring up some friends let me know.

I'm curious...Bogeys ain't your worst hole when you're stringling together a couple of 83's...which hole presented you with the most problems at VN..

We spent the night at the Casino and then played 36 then drove home.

Knew the Supt there, Heard he has left. You a member? What a treat to play daily if you are.

As far as which holes "got me" DB 4 15 18 a few other bogeys and a birdie on 17 one 18.

I can tell you it was a neat course to play.

[wsmorrison]

"Should a National Champion be able to stop a shot on a firm green from 220 yd?"

Maybe not, but he dang well should from 219 yards.

[John Kavanaugh]

Dale did leave us.  I believe he is running a sod farm in North Carolina, but I'm not sure.  Just weeks after he left, his house was destroyed by the Tornado that killed 15 people in the local area.  Thankfully his family escaped without major injury.

Did you see any architectural features at VN you may want to use in your own work....something worthy of study, so to speak.

[John Kavanaugh]

David,

What is wrong with having a par 4 that the majority of us just bogey and get on with our lives.  Why does everyone need an option to succeed when they don't put in the work to get better.  I think the 14th at Victoria National is a perfect example where the tees stretch from 340 to 470 yds.  The hole can be played with a putter as there are no forced carries but because of the downslope from 200 to 100 yds and an elevated green the hole is really only for the elite player to par from any tee.  What is so bad about a little difficultly now and then.  How many birdies am I a six handicap entitled too...or you, or anyone else for that matter.

John,
I am in favor of difficult holes.  I have never played Victoria, but I suspect most could make par by playing TGG or playing to a position to make par with a well played 3rd.  

Ditto the reward for working to get better.  After playing with you at Midpines, I believe if you put in the work, you could hit a high 220 yard fade that lands softly.   The beauty is that if the difficult holes have the options to make par, then I don't need to spend time learning that 220 yard high fade.  I can spend time practicing higher percentage shots that I will utilize in more situations.  

Now I get it..you're Bluto.  My friend, welcome to the board.  note: If you are not Bluto please ignore the preceeding comments.  What club did you hit high and soft into 18 to close out our match with a birdie...That was the best shot I saw all year to finish a close match on the last hole.

[Jerry Lemons]

Wow I read and heard about the storms. Being  S.E. ILL native, I spent a great deal of time in Eville.

Fazio's greatest features on your course is how he takes you from a S Ind cornfield into the most rugged terrain for a GC and ties it into golf.
1. Shaping of features was as good as it gets!
2. Conditoning was a 10
3. Routing of each hole - 10
4. Character of Greens complexes - 10
5. Each hole was very indivualized.
6. Par three collection, may be the best I have seen. Tough 16th but fair.  

Love to come up again. How about you coming to Nashville? Every down here or in W KY

[John Kavanaugh]

Wow I read and heard about the storms. Being  S.E. ILL native, I spent a great deal of time in Eville.

Fazio's greatest features on your course is how he takes you from a S Ind cornfield into the most rugged terrain for a GC and ties it into golf.
1. Shaping of features was as good as it gets!
2. Conditoning was a 10
3. Routing of each hole - 10
4. Character of Greens complexes - 10
5. Each hole was very indivualized.
6. Par three collection, may be the best I have seen. Tough 16th but fair.  

Love to come up again. How about you coming to Nashville? Every down here or in W KY

I come to Nashville time and again to visit the nicest man on GCA..Mike Hendren.  Next time I'm through I'll see if we can get a game and in the mean time you should look up Mike for a game.  SE ILL...hell, I live in Lawrenceville, IL....did you ever get you ass kicked by the Carmi boys...a couple of them are members at VN.  Note: Carmi won five straight high school championships in the late 70's

[A_Clay_Man]

This thread reminds me of the tenth at Shinny. Where the "pros" couldn't stop thier lob wedges from 90 yards on a frim surface.
Now, if they had been better students of gca, they might have tried it from 150 where the upslope of the hill could assist them.

[Chris Pike]

There seemed to be some interesting dialogue surrounding Tiger Woods this past weekend at the Buick, with regards to his addition of a 5-wood in his bag and the removal of his 3-iron.  He was quoted as saying that, with his current swing speed, he wasn't able to hit the ball high enough with his 3-iron (versus the 5-wood).  This is probably the single most important factor in holding a green from 220 yards.  If you hit a sky-high fade, you should be able to hold any firm and fast green (assuming that it's also fair).  Of course, this applies to Tour players and not us  

[Steve Pieracci]

David,

What is wrong with having a par 4 that the majority of us just bogey and get on with our lives.  Why does everyone need an option to succeed when they don't put in the work to get better.  I think the 14th at Victoria National is a perfect example where the tees stretch from 340 to 470 yds.  The hole can be played with a putter as there are no forced carries but because of the downslope from 200 to 100 yds and an elevated green the hole is really only for the elite player to par from any tee.  What is so bad about a little difficultly now and then.  How many birdies am I a six handicap entitled too...or you, or anyone else for that matter.

John,
I am in favor of difficult holes.  I have never played Victoria, but I suspect most could make par by playing TGG or playing to a position to make par with a well played 3rd.  

Ditto the reward for working to get better.  After playing with you at Midpines, I believe if you put in the work, you could hit a high 220 yard fade that lands softly.   The beauty is that if the difficult holes have the options to make par, then I don't need to spend time learning that 220 yard high fade.  I can spend time practicing higher percentage shots that I will utilize in more situations.  

Now I get it..you're Bluto.  My friend, welcome to the board.  note: If you are not Bluto please ignore the preceeding comments.  What club did you hit high and soft into 18 to close out our match with a birdie...That was the best shot I saw all year to finish a close match on the last hole.

Hello John, thanks for the welcome, I am indeed Bluto.  

I hit a 53 deg wedge from the fairway, the shot I had been practicing the week prior to travelling to NC.  It was however set up with the best drive I hit all weekend.  

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