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Mike Hendren

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Strategic Use of OB
« on: February 01, 2006, 03:51:02 PM »
Do modern architects strategically utilize OB, or do they merely run out of real estate?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Ryan Crago

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2006, 03:54:58 PM »
i'd imagine they do... but maybe the question really is SHOULD they?   i for one, am opposed to all things OB... ESPECIALLY in course OB to shore up strategy between holes.  clearly, thats not the only strategic use but....

and even as i write that i think about the 4th at Woking... and the use of the railroad tracks/OB on the right side.  plays a major part in the "strategery" (as we like to call it here in western canada).... hmmm.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2006, 04:31:44 PM »
Mike,

I think the real question is; Does OB strategy have any meaning for the medal play golfer?

The OB strategies of the UK seem to be a leftover from a reliance on match play. How many golfers played right of the Principles Nose during the Open Championship last year? Did anyone drive it close to the wall by TOC Hotel on the Road Hole? I didn't see a single golfer attempt it and can see why. Why would you risk the loss of 2 strokes (stroke and distance) to gain an advantage that would only yield one stroke (a birdie) by gaining a better path to the pin and consequently getting your ball closer to the hole?

There is good OB strategy on #2 at Rustic Canyon; but I wouldn't try and hug the fence in a stroke play qualifier there, only if I was trying to take a few $$ of Dr. Moriarty.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2006, 06:03:09 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Andy Troeger

Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2006, 05:49:01 PM »
i'd imagine they do... but maybe the question really is SHOULD they?   i for one, am opposed to all things OB... ESPECIALLY in course OB to shore up strategy between holes.  clearly, thats not the only strategic use but....


Ryan,
I agree completely...I hate OB, especially in-course OB!

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2006, 05:57:35 PM »
I'll look forward to hearing what the GCA's on the site have to say about this.  I would think that they would consider OB a necessary evil, much like an artist reaching the edge of a canvas, then be as creative as possible given that limitation.

However, I don't know much about art, either! ???
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2006, 06:12:27 PM »
For strategic use of OB look no further than Talking Stick North #2, which had a thread of its own a couple of weeks back. IMO it's a very strategic hole, in large part due to the OB. See also Talking Stick North #12.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=21319;start=0
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2006, 06:18:17 PM »
Doug,

I've yet to play Talking Stick but have followed the dialouge about the 2cnd hole very closely; I know it's one of Bogey's favorites. Does the hole present a difficult enough shot from the right to make a golfer have to flirt with OB.

This seems to be the key to making it work to me; the shot left for those who do not challange OB must be very dangerous to really make you cozy up to those white stakes. Both #2 at Rustic and TS are scarier because a barbed wire fence does not stop many golf balls.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2006, 07:43:58 PM »
Will Hoylake have more ob than any recent major?

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2006, 11:27:30 AM »
Mike,

Didn't Hoylake eliminate alot of OB to get the Open?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2006, 11:40:26 AM »
Hogan's Alley.  Seems like he challenged the OB in medal play.  Granted, Carnoustie is not a modern course and the old equipment may have made the shot from the right more problematic but the hole demonstrates effective use of OB.  Talking Stick North #2 is similar conceptually.

Sandman

Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2006, 05:11:03 PM »
I feel that the best way to judge the merit of O.B. is to imagine that the O.B. area were a pond..........................

Of course there are times when a boundery, such as an O.B., MUST be established in order to protect neighboring homes or such..............

MikeJones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2006, 05:28:37 PM »
Every course has boundaries and unless you want your players taking a scenic trip into the farmers fields 'just to take in the scenery' , you'd better make them OB.

If every course has to have OB then why not take full advantage of this harshest of penalties and factor it into the strategy of the hole?

I think many of the best strategies in golf revolve around extremely penal hazards.  I do however think that OB accompanied by width is best as it leaves the option to 'bail out' leaving a poorer angle for the next shot. The brave and skillful however can reap their rewards.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2006, 03:49:50 PM »
But out of bounds carries a different penalty than a pond.Is the practice ground going to be OB at Hoylake?Seems like years ago they waived the OB on 7 in a tournament.How close is the OB on what I guess will be 17?I think it will be interesting,but would hate to be protecting a lead.(Actually,that is the most stupid thing I have ever said,and is to stupid to delete)

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2006, 09:19:38 PM »
 I feel that Riverwinds in New Jersey does a good job of using OB as strategic on #4, a short par five. There is a sharp dogleg right which is created by the OB. But if you hit driver straight you will likely blow it through the fairway into the left rough fairly easily. So , if you choose driver you need to cut that dogleg. If successful you can have under 200 to the green.

 The joy of this strategic option is reinforced when you get to #18 and have that "just avoid it" parallel OB I despise.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2006, 09:20:10 PM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2006, 10:32:38 PM »
In thinking about strategic usage of OB, and thinking about various courses I have played in the past, I immediately thought about my college course, Rutgers GC, in Piscataway, NJ.  
Situated on a tight piece of property, OB is used on eight of the holes on the first nine, to rather poor effect, along with the architecture of the course.  

Although the property is small, there is some minor elevation change throughout the property, and the necessity to fit 18 into a tight piece of property might make a fun exercise in redesigning the golf course.  

Many of the holes are rather short, befitting a small piece of land bordered by a residential neighborhood, academic buildings, and the sports complex.  

On several of the holes, internal OB is used between holes; while I can see the merit in the thought process behind it, probably to pressure the golfer to hit it straight, recoveries can be affected by the presence of this internal OB.  It is at this point that I feel it is almost gimmicky.  

For my bit of armchair architecture, I would re-orient the approach angles to several of the holes by making the player flirt with the OB on several of the holes bordering the course boundaries (push play to the outside of the course) for the optimal angle in to the hole.  

As it stands now, there is nothing to be gained from flirting with the OB.  I feel a judicious use of it would create a fun challenge to many of the holes on the course.

If anyone's in my area and wants to play this season, please let me know.  It's short, not too challenging, but makes for a fun round, and there's the promise of a Fat Cat afterwards.  
(local Rutgers college trash-fare)

(disclaimer)
My apologies if I'm a bit more disjointed than normal, I've just returned from a very mediocre first date, helped along with copious application of Newcastle Brown Ale   ;D

Needless to say, I was excited by the prospect of coming back to my friends on GCA  ;D
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Kyle Harris

Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2006, 10:47:37 PM »
One of the underuses of OB is in a Principal's Nose type feature.

An example of a miss oppurtunity is the 12th hole at Makefield Highlands. A Par 5 of roughly 550 yards with OB down the left side.

The Tee Shot:


With a semi-blind bail out area to the right, the bunker on the left hand side of the fairway could have been moved down the middle... giving the golfer a choice in bailing out right or trying to thread the needle between the OB and the Bunker complex.

Two shots of the approaches show that the green is MUCH more open on the left side, especially for a run-up ball. Whereas a tee shot bailing out would have a much more difficult shot at the green in two.

Approach from middle of Fairway, about 200 yards out:


Same angle, zoomed:
« Last Edit: February 03, 2006, 10:48:11 PM by Kyle Harris »

MikeJones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2006, 11:23:14 PM »
I agree Kyle, even if they took that bunker and mound out on the left hand side completely it would make it a more strategic hole. Also perhaps adding another bunker to the right side of the green to make it an even better propostion to attack it with a long shot from the left would work too.




Kyle Harris

Re:Strategic Use of OB
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2006, 11:25:59 PM »
Mike,

Nice work with the photo.

However the picture doesn't show a rather large collection area currently mowed as fairway in that area. Any ball in that area is liable to run into the bunker or be faced with a difficult chip to a left hole location (the green slopes away) or a tricky pitch over/flirting with the bunker to a right hole location.

Your bunker would work well, but there is some interest around the green that the photo isn't showing too well.

A better view from the left hand side:
« Last Edit: February 03, 2006, 11:30:08 PM by Kyle Harris »

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