[John Kavanaugh]

Two holes which to the laymans eye appear to be a mirror image...the 4th at both Torrey Pines and Pacific Dunes.  What are the fine details that would influence strategic choices or not..


http://www.torreypines.com/torrey-pines-south/hole4.asp

Torrey Pines South Course - Hole #4
Par 4 - 483 / 471 / 460 / 450 / 388 yards - Handicap 3 / 9

After three holes you are probably thinking: "(Torrey Pines South) beautiful, but not THAT tough". Well, here's a tooth of the beast for you. A long par-4, mostly into the wind,cliffs on the left, bunkers right. Green perched on a cliff. A simple, great golf hole. A drive slightly left is a bit better than right, particularly if the rough is not too long. The two-tiered green is well protected front and left. You might consider running your approach up the hill to the right of the green, taking advantage of the slope of the terrain. Make a par here and it'll feel like a birdie. Only hole at Torrey Pines South next to the ocean in its entirety.

http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/pacific_hole4.cfm

Pacific Dunes #4: 463 yards, par 4

Playing along the Pacific Ocean, this is one of the greatest par-fours in the world. Favor the left side of the fairway with your tee shot, for obvious reasons. A large slope on the front left of this green will naturally feed balls to the right. At no time can you miss it right!

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

Two major differences.

1) A drive away from the cliff leaves a MUCH tougher approach at PD, semi-blind over the dune with death just beyond and a green that runs away from you coming in from the left.

2) A drive away from the cliff at TPS actually leaves an easier approach as the green opens up from that side and the green itself is not perched on the edge of disaster and there is a lot of room to bail out right. Conversely, the daring play down the left from the tee is rewarded with a full-carry approach over a bunker to the elevated green.

[Andy Hughes]

A drive away from the cliff at TPS actually leaves an easier approach as the green opens up from that side and the green itself is not perched on the edge of disaster and there is a lot of room to bail out right. Conversely, the daring play down the left from the tee is rewarded with a full-carry approach over a bunker to the elevated green.

Mike, you tend to be subtle and polite-are we to assume the hole at Torrey Pines is perhaps not quite as well designed?  

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

What you say above is the exact opposite of what the clubs recommend on their own web sites.  Don't forget these holes are a mirror image with the ocean on the left at TP and the right at PD..

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

What you say above is the exact opposite of what the clubs recommend on their own web sites.  Don't forget these holes are a mirror image with the ocean on the left at TP and the right at PD..

John,

Those marketing guys who type that tripe don't have a clue.  

There is no reason to flirt with the cliff on TPS #4 from the tee.  I'd be really curious to know how many balls went down onto the nude beach below from either the tee or approach this week.  I'm betting 0.

At PD, there is every reason to attempt to keep the ball towards the right (if you dare), as you'll be approaching up the length of the green and actuallly into the slope, without any of the blindness from the dune on the left or the green running away from you from the left side.

[peter_p]

I have never played Torrey Pine South #4. At PAcific Dunes you end up with a better angle to the green the closer you get to the ocean. It is better by sight and by slopes near the green. My tee shot is usually way left near the bunker. It is one of the few lateral hazards where I am not greatly bothered when my ball is deposited therein. Good design, from tee to green.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't know how but Rod Pampling was leading the tournament the last day and managed to double the 4th hole to begin his demise.  I bet it had something to do with the ocean hazard one way or the other.  Your zero figure is out the window.

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

I don't know how either.  I tried to search for more info but came up empty.

Does anyone out there know how Pampling met his fate on the 4th?  Was it down the cliff to a watery doom, or did he take all six shots on land?

[Raphael_Larson]

I've played TPS #4 only once a couple years ago (post-Reesification) but, as I recall, the cliffs are nowhere near the fairway or line of play.  There is easily 20 yards of rough and trees to the left of the fairway before you get to the cliffs.  I can't imagine anyone, let alone a tour pro, hitting it so far left as to go over the cliff.  The best angle from the tee is to hug the right rough-line to take the left front bunker out of play for your approach.  

There really is no comparison between TPS #4 and PD #4 as far as proximity to the cliff/strategy is concerned.  
 

[Mike_Cirba]

Raphael,

I remember the first time I played Torrey I was very disappointed to find that the hole was soo very far away from the cliff.  

Rees did move the green a bit closer, but it's still nothing like hanging on the precipice that the 4th at PD exemplifies.

Besides, as you mentioned, the correct advantageous angle for the approach is to avoid the left cliff-side entirely on the drive.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Well now Mike, I am honored by that new quote.  

 

As for the holes at hand here, don't forget TP-S plays pretty soft - no ball is going to roll off the cliff there.  That's a CONSTANT worry at PD.  Good shots heading at the green have a very troubling way of ending up on the beach.

TH

[Raphael_Larson]

Mike -- I too was disappointed with the lack of proximity to the cliff.  On #4 the closest point to the cliff is the green itself but even that is still not dangerously close.  Both the tee shot and second shot at PD #4 make you think about the cliff, that is simply not the case at TPS #4.

I'm going to be in San Diego in two weeks and am opting to drive 2+ hours to play Rustic Canyon rather than being beaten down at TPS for 3 times the cost.  The current plan is to play Rustic on Friday and Barona on Saturday.  Can anyone tell me how long the drive will be on Friday morning from Carlsbad to Moorpark?  Can it be done with a return drive to Carlsbad in the evening?

[Tom Huckaby]

Raphael:

 

I'm smiling because this has come up before, and I'm always the grumpy ole middle-aged man saying "no way you should make that drive - the traffic sucks and it will take forever."

So while that is true, well.. we shall stick with Yahoo! Maps, which says it is 133 miles and just a little less than 2 hours from Carlsbad to Moorpark.

Just do understand you will be going through some of the worst traffic on this planet, and it really doesn't matter how early you leave... nor will it help much to go the night before...

Whoops!  Couldn't help it - middle-aged man strikes again.

TH

[Raphael_Larson]

Tom -- Thanks for the advice.  I originally planned to play both days at Barona but there is a tournament on Friday.  I have never played Rustic and thought this could be a good opportunity to finally experience it.  With full knowledge of what I'm in for with the commute, I think it may still be worth the hardship given all the accolades about Rustic I've read here ... especially since middle-aged grumpiness isn't too far away and then I'll be forced to play La Costa or TPS just to avoid the commute.  

Raphael

[Tom Huckaby]

Raphael:  rest assured Rustic is worth any pain it takes to get there.  I just did want to give you full disclosure.  I don't think you CAN avoid the Orange County and through-LA traffic, but your best chance is to go on the Thu night very late, or very very early Fri morning.  Commutes start at 5am if not earlier through there.  Good luck!

TH

[DMoriarty]

Not.

Here is the aerial of Torrey South No. 4.  

[Tom Huckaby]

That says it all - we don't even need to see #4 PD - but that would be cool if you could find it, Dave.

4 PD goes right up to the cliffs - losing a ball down them is a constant thought.  Add the firm and fast and it is one scary golf hole.  I find little fear at 4 TP-S - and that goes for drive and approach shot.

CAVEAT - I haven't played the post-Rees TP-S - just basing this on TV and pics.  I did play it many times pre-Rees.

TH

[DMoriarty]

I cant find a good aerial for PD No. 4, but here one can see it behind the 12th green, which is in the foreground.   The photo does not show that back tee which is set quite a bit right, toward the ocean, so that the drive has a slight cape feel to it.  Also, one has to look closely to see just how much the greenside dune and bunkers come into vision and play if one bales out into the ample area left.  

[DMoriarty]

Here is a rough rendering of what Torrey South No. 4 might have looked like if was modeled as a reflection of Pacific Dunes No. 4.  

[Tom Huckaby]

That's pretty damn good Dave and highlights the key difference - fairway right out to the cliff edge.

Well done!

TH

[Jordan Wall]

The obvious difference is that Pacific is a lot better looking then Torrey.  Without a doubt, at that.  Pacific has a better hole #4 then Torrey, and one of the best hole #4's in the entire world...plus though David did a good job he forgot that Pacific Dunes #4 has a tee stretching on a bluff over the ocean.

See what I mean.

[Tom Huckaby]

PD#4 also has a tee down below and to the right, making for an uphill tee shot - it's one of the unused "secret" tees.  Now THAT is one hell of a great tee shot from down there.

As for scenic value, well... don't sell TP-S short there, my friend.  It is very, very beautiful.  I'd say looking inward, PD is better - the bunkers have that rough look that's so neat today, and one is looking at gorse and the like which is very cool.  But if one looks outward along the bluffs or out to see, it is a wash at the very least.

TH

[Sean Leary]

PD#4 also has a tee down below and to the right, making for an uphill tee shot - it's one of the unused "secret" tees.  Now THAT is one hell of a great tee shot from down there.

I can't believe that I didn't know about that tee.  I found a bunch of the secret tee boxes, (1 and 18 for sure) but never that one.

In anwsering the question, I think that there is a lot of similarity.  The landing area at PD seems much narrower between the bunker and the cliff.  I like 4 at Pacific, but for an oceanside hole, I like 13 better.....

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:  when were you there?  Last June it was already damn near fully overgrown - I think they didn't want too many people shlepping down there - risk of injury and all - there was no path down to it per se, you just scrambled down and back up as best you could.  But man that was one really cool tee shot.  You could see the tee easily - it was just to the right, down the cliff from the tee the golfer is hitting from in the pic Jordan posted.

As for the two holes in question, sure there is similarity - they are both long tough ocean cliff-side par fours.  They just play very differently.

I think I like 13 better than 4 also, btw.

[Sean Leary]

I was there last weekend, but they had the tees moved up a bit as the winds were coming from the south.  Do you know where the other secret tees are? I'd love to look for all of them the next time I am there.

 I have actually hit my second shot from over the cliff on the right side of 4.  It was blowing about 40 and my tee ball scampered across the fairway off the cliff and got caught in a bush.  So to the utter horror of my playing partners, I climb down there about 3 feet, and hit the ball back in play while it was suspended in midair.  Totally stupid shot, but if I think I can do it 1 out of 10, for some reason I can't make myself punt. My buddies talk about it every time we play there...

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