[Bob_Huntley]

I have just returned from a Las Vegas jaunt and played three rounds at Southern Highlands. At 622 yards is there anyone in this DG that has parred the hole? I do think it is one of the more difficult holes that I have played.

[Bill_McBride]

If you watch Tiger, Charles Howell, etc on TV, that hole's no problem, Bob -- 330 yard tee ball, 290 yard 3-wood!  But it does sound tough for mere mortals!

[David Wigler]

Bob,

I made par on my only trip there.  I must admit that it is one of the rare par fives that I do not even think about getting home in two.  I play there again late this week, so I will give you an update on how it goes.  BTW I find the course to be a real visual treat.  What did you think?

[Paul Richards]

David:

I, too, found Southern Highlands to be a "visual treat."  However, many would probably dismiss the course as "everything that is wrong with modern architecture", i.e. the waterfalls, glitz, perfect conditions, etc. etc.  Despite all the "eye-candy" I found the course to be definately a worth-while four hours spent!

[Matt_Ward]

David, Paul, et al:

Southern Highlands is a fine layout by Bobby Jones, Jr. and fits the Las Vegas locale perfectly. Yes, it does feature all the "extras" but at the end of the day when you add it all up the golf is quite entertaining and fun.

Is Southern Highlands in the top five in Nevada? Well, in my mind it's very close with courses such as Cascata and Rio Seco battling for the final spot.

Anyone who get the opportunity to play Southern Highlands should go -- it's clearly has plenty to offer to the golfing experience when in the Vegas area.

[Bob_Huntley]

I thoroughly enjoyed my three rounds there. Admittedly a couple of waterfalls semed superfluous but the stream coursing down the 18th was a strategic gem.

The scorecard lists both Jones Senior and Junior as the architect of record. I was puzzled over this, as the course has only been opened for some three years. I thought Senior had been long retired by then. However, the Pro, assured me that it was a collaboration between the two.

Dave Wigler :

When you return make sure to get hold of Chris Rasmussen as your caddie. In a lifetime of golf I have yet to come across anyone better.

[David Wigler]

Bob,

I am there in Thursday and will definitely make the request.  That is a very strong recomendation.  I agree about the stream on 18.  It is very well done.

Matt,

I think Southern Highlands is a far superior course to Rio Secco.  Cascata will not let me on, so I cannot comment.  

[Matt_Ward]

David:

When you say Southern Highlands is far superior please explain how you reached that conclusion? I'm not making Rio Secco for sainthood but the differences between the two and also Cascata, if any, are purely marginal at best.

I really like Southern Highlands and if I had to rate the best in the Silver State I would go with the following:

1. Shadow Creek
2. Wolf Creek at Paradise Canyon (but it must be in better shape than it was when I last played the course in May)
3. The Wolf Course at Paiute Resort
4. Montreux
5. Lake Las Vegas (Reflection Ridge)
6. Southern Highlands (slight edge over #7 & #8 )
7. Rio Secco
8. Cascata

Quick question -- has anyone who's played Southern Highlands played the new Tom Weiskopf course at Lake Las Vegas? Impressions?

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Mea culpa on my part. I left off the private SouthShore at Lake Las Vegas -- the Nicklaus layout. I'd probably have the course finish just a shade behind Reflection Bay (correction from Reflection Ridge). I'd also probably put SouthShore just ahead of Southern Highlands.

How would you assess SouthShore v. Southern Highlands?

[GPazin]

Matt -

Re: Wolf Creek - When you played there last May, were you allowed to play the tips? When I was there in Sept. '01, the staff said the tips were closed more or less permanently & would only be used for tournaments & possibly not even then.

I didn't find the condition when I played it to be bad at all. Of course, maybe my vertigo had me distracted.

[David Wigler]

Matt,

I am off on my yearly pilgrimage to Vegas on Thursday.  I play Southern on Thursday and the new Weiskopf course on Monday.  I will give you a review when I return one week from today.  I will also answer your question via Southern, SouthShore, Rio Secco.  I really like SouthShore (It might be my favorite Nicklaus on the planet).

[Matt_Ward]

George P:

Glad to hear you had the opportunity to play Wolf Creek at Paradise Canyon. What did you think of the layout? Have you adjusted from the vertigo effect -- specifically the back tee on #2?

I'm sorry you could not play the back tees -- one of the issue I have with the facility is that a number of the back tees are just not prepared sufficiently. The back tee is basically closed and I don't see why if a player has the ability to handle it.

Also, a few of the back tees on several holes (i.e. the 8th and 18th) were really in poor condition when I played there last May. It's the lack of precise detailing that could become an issue with the course and I'm praying that doesn't happen because I find the course so utterly different.

Dennis Ryder did a marvelous job in transforming the native terrain without overdoing the process. Wolf Creek has plenty of challenge for all levels of players provided you play the correct tee. What I hope doesn't happen is the "Pebble Beach" syndrome -- the concept where management sets the course up in only a one dimensional manner and the better player must then play from forward tees on just about every hole.

I can remember when the back tee at #1 was basically closed and you had to tee it p just beyond where the cart path cuts across. Now, before anyone goes ballistic -- I'm not suggesting the course HAVE to be played from the back tees but the option to do so should be available on a day-to-day basis. Proper oversight by course personnel can keep people moving but the rounds at Wolf Creek can drag because most people are not prepared for the challenge that awaits.

Wolf Creek, when prepared properly and consistently, is an absolute must play for anyone visiting the general Las Vegas area. I would say when the course is presented in a manner that it should be the layout is easily among my top 50 public courses in the USA -- more likely the top 25.

George, what did you think about the par-3 8th, the par-4 14th and the par-5 17th? I believe each of these holes is among the finest you can play. The 8th may be one of the most difficult long par-3's you can play anywhere -- that's if they allow you to play from the tips which was in need of heavy duty maintenance.

Wolf Creek got off to a fast start and deserves to be recognized, however, the situation now is about existing conditionings and what's needed. I really love the course because the thrills are certainly there. I just hope they will continue. We shall see.

FYI ... George, when I have played Wolf Creek I had the permission of the Director of Golf to play from the max back.

[George Pazin]

Matt -

Wolf Creek was a course that I really needed to reflect on to come to any sort of conclusion, primarily because the first thing the course exposed was just how bad & irrational my fear of heights is. I felt extremely uncomfortable on a large number of tee shots (indeed, one of the other members of my group of 12 had to walk off the course after a half dozen holes). I realize this fear is irrational - I have never fallen forward on a regular golf swing, and certainly not the 5 feet forward it would take to reach some of the cliffs. However, the cliffs are just that - cliffs where one would die if he fell off. Overall it left me very uncomfortable.

The other issue is the very odd nature of the course. At one point (I think the 11th tee), I turned to one of my friends & said, "This reminds me of that fantasy calendar with the golf holes you can never play." He said he was thinking the exact same thing. I have an entire roll of film of photos that I'd love to post when I get the chance. It's definitely different.

When I finally sat down & thought about the actual golf, I found it rather compelling. There were definitely some interesting holes, plenty of quirk & a slew of shots you probably wouldn't see anywhere else, except maybe that Redlands course in Colorado. The par 3 8th was definitely a really challenging hole, even from the tees we played (I think 1 set up from the tips). I ignored the rules & hiked up to the back tee. The green looks like a speck from back (& up) there.

I really liked the par 3 third. I loved the skyline aspect of the green (a personal bias of mine ) & I found the tee shot very deceptive. It looked much shorter than it was & my tee shot showed it, finishing well short (serves my right for doubting the GPS, which I did my best to ignore, to the dismay of my friends).

I liked both 13 & 14. 13 looked to be driveable if there were a directional marker, which I'm sure they don't want to encourage since you can't see the green to see if it's clear. 14 seemed like the longest par 4 I've ever played, but again it was deceptive on the tee. It didn't play super long.

I also liked the 15th, though I think the tee shot would be extremely difficult in a heavy wind, since you're on top of the world exposed & a long carry is called for.

Even the drop shot 16th was cool for a very short par 3.

Holes I didn't particularly care for: 1, 6, 9, 10, 11, 18 & especially #7. 7 played 7 iron - lob wedge for me, & a 6 would've ended up in the drink. I also completely guessed on the 7, hitting it simply because it's my favorite club. I don't see any way one could drive the hole, realistically, since the green is a small plateau perched on a short hill overlooking water. I would like to stand there for an hour or so & try to drive the hole, though.

Overall, it's not a course I will return to unless I see a psychiatrist to clear up my fears, and it certainly is the antithesis of a natural golf course, but there are definitely a lot of fun holes out there, if you can take the vertigo. And if the constant sound of carts squealing as they skid down the hills doesn't bother you. First course I've ever seen with speed bumps on the cart paths, & they are definitely needed!

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Thanks for the detailed reply. Couple of quick responses ...

The 7th can be driven as you usually play the hole downwind. I've hit a 3-wood and with a solid hit reached the green easily. I don't doubt it can be a scary moment for many since it's all carry if you opt to go for it. When they place the pin dead right it makes this short par-4 really good since few people will play directly on that line and opt to miss it left where there's a bit more room. The aspect that makes the hole so good in my mind is the options it presents. Even if you drive the green it's no sure thing you can always get it down for a birdie.

Your issue about vertigo is quite correct for those who might be aware of the different heights. However, if you play any of the more elevated courses in the Rockies you get the same deal.

The back tee on the par-3 8th and the back tee at the par-4 18th really need to be upgraded. I also concur with your statement that Wolf Creek is not a "natural" course in the purest sense of the definition -- but what it does provide is maximum fun and it does adhere to the axiom that the good shot will be rewarded and the poor shot will be penalized.

Your also right about the need for brakes on the carts. If there was ever a course where you can have severe injuries if you get reckless or careless it's at Wolf Creek.

Just to clarify your holes On the 15th hole -- you should see what the hole is like when the wind is hitting your face at about 25-30 mph. That short shot will really have you pucker up on the short par-3.

On the 16th hole there is discussion on building another championship tee because the originally proposed one called for a carry of nearly 290 yards. Clearly impossible for all but the Jason Zubacks of the world. I believe if another tee can be found that brings the carry down to about 250-260 yards that would be fine.

I agree with you on the 18th because of the tacky waterfall but I like the 9th. Again -- another back tee that's often closed.

Glad you mentioned the uphill 3rd hole. I think it's one of the best uphill holes you can play. The slightest push to the right is deader than Elvis!

I also like the par-5 17th -- one of the better risk and reward type holes you can play.

Wolf Creek has so much to offer -- the key will be to constantly keep the course in a presentable manner. One thing for sure -- when you've played Wolf Creek it certainly will be a place you'll never forget.

George, last question -- was Wolf Creek your first major desert type course in the lower Nevada and southern Utah area?

[George Pazin]

Matt -

It was part of my first trip experiencing desert golf. The first course was Dragon Ridge, south of Vegas, I believe - I didn't like it at all. The second was Primm Valley - Desert Course. It was fun, if not especially memorable. The Lake Course was completely dormant & no one else in my group wanted to play it. Wolf Creek was third.

I think I mixed up 15 & 16 - I thought 15 was the par 4 & 16 the short par 3. Regardless, I liked both, though the 200 yard carry into the wind that I faced on the par 4 was enough for me.

Re: 18 - I don't care one way or another about waterfalls. I understand they are a concession to the eye candy crowd. I just didn't find it very interesting. I think I hit 3 iron to a wide open fairway & wedge to a bland green. Neither shot seemed particularly interesting, especially for a closer.

I don't really remember 9 very well, it seemed similar to 18 from my meager recollection.

Driving #7 seems very doable from a yardage standpoint, it just seemed to me that the green was too shallow to accept a longer club. But that could simply be a mistaken memory on my part.

#17 seemed okay, but with water fronting the green, it's way too much risk versus the reward for an inconsistent golfer like me.

[Craig Van Egmond]

George,

    I am curious about what you didn't like at Dragon Ridge. While it wasn't a fabulous course, I thought it had some good holes, a  couple with alternate fairways and some interesting short par 4's. A nice mix of long and short par 3's.

[Paul Richards]

Craig:

I found Dragon Ridge to have some very beautiful vistas, a couple of interesting holes, but, I must say, the 18th hole had to be one of the worst-designed holes anywhere!  It's a reachable par 5, and I hit a very good drive, which left me with a second-shot that required me to wait for the foursome in front of me to play up the hole, but have to watch them drive their carts nearly all the way back to me because there is no way to drive a cart up the left side of the fairway to the green!  After about a 10-minute wait, and watching their two carts zip back and forth trying to find a way to the green, I, of course, had 0 chance of hitting the green with my second.  Amazingly, I did hit it, but missed the eagle putt.

Until someone tells me that the chaos on #18 has been fixed,
Dragon Ridge won't rate too highly on my list.

[Matt_Ward]

What's interesting to note is that such clubs as Southern Highlands show how Las Vegas is attempting to move beyond the upscale daily fee type golf that have until recently dominated the landscape. I can't imagine too many major municipalities that have as high a cost to play golf as Vegas does. Beyond Angel Park and a few others that are a good ways out of town I don't know how local can afford to play minus when courses are less crowded during the intense summer months.

The development of other private clubs may prove to be a real beneficial aspect provided the quality of the designs is equal to the test. Thus far, in my book, Shadow Creek (I still consider the club de facto private because of the manner in which you have access) is still far beyond the others. We shall see.

[GPazin]

Craig -

I've been thinking about your questions regading my lack of enjoyment of Dragon Ridge and I really haven't come up with a good response. The singular mention above was probably a little unfair because this was definitely an instance in which my poor play affected my feelings.

The course was my first experience with desert golf, and to make things worse, I played it the morning after a late night flight out in a good bit of wind, after busting my butt for the previous 3 weeks leading up to the trip, not touching a club the entire time while working 3 consecutive 100 hour work weeks. I found the course extremely unforgiving, which is about the worst thing possible when you are as mediocre a golfer as I am. Most holes started out with me aiming right & hitting a giant sweeping hook that missed the fairway by 20 yards left, watching in frustration as the ball pinballed around the rock strewn fields, lost each time, especially since I have no desire to be bitten by a rattlesnake. I actually played the entire back 9 with only my 7 iron. After finishing, one of my friends asked me about the day & I said it was the least enjoyable experience I had ever had on a golf course (which says something about golf in general, since I still had fun). We discussed the round & the course & came to the conclusion that it was probably more my poor play than anything else, though I will say I didn't play much better the next day at Primm - Desert & had infinitely more fun, as the course was about 1000 times more playable for someone as wild as me.

As far as individual holes go, the only two I remember well that I enjoyed were #10 or 11 (the short par 4 with the alternate fairway) & #18, which also had an alternate fairway option. I didn't play either particularly well, so I can't say it was that, I just thought they were fun & thought provoking. I also remember a cool greensite on #7 or 8, which was perched on a hill after the fairway kind of curved around a pond. Heck, it might have been #6, I don't remember.

The rest of the holes don't really stand out in my mind & I'm usually pretty good out replaying a round in my head. #2 was the only par 3 I enjoyed, with the big bunker well short of the green making the very downhill tee shot look shorter than it was.

Hope this helps.

George

[GPazin]

P.S. I suspect Matt's right about affordable golf in Vegas. I played on my bachelor party courtesy of my exceptionally generous friends. My previous trip to Vegas (in '98) I didn't even bother to play, as rates were too high for me. I don't generally shell out over $100 to play if I haven't even heard of the course.

Spending that kind of money on a special course, now, that's another situation entirely. Right now I'm saving for a trip to Australia. Next round of tee shirts might cost you guys a little more....

[MBL]

Two of us Newbie GCAers are off to Vegas the first weekend in Feb and would appreciate some recommendations.  Given that many on the above 'best of' list are private, we were just hoping for some pointers.  

And we are willing to shell the $$ for Shadow Creek, but are staying at Caesars - any suggestions re access....

Thanks.

[Matt_Ward]

MB:

Hit the tables at any of the joints owned by MGM and let it be known you are a high roller. At that point one of the pit bosses will be all ears to your request to play Shadow Creek!

I recommend staying at Lake Las Vegas Resort in Henderson. You're not on the Strip but there's plenty of golf to be had. You can play Reflection Bay -- the Nicklaus course or The Falls, the new Weiskopf course at the facility.

I also recommend taking a short drive, 75 miles, to Mesquite and taking on Wolf Creek at Paradise Canyon. It's a course you will never forget -- I just hope the turf conditions have improved since my last visit this past May -- especially on several of the back tees.

Just keep in mind Vegas golf rates are usually triple digit deals. You can also venture out to Primm Valley on the border between NV and CA and play the 36 holes there -- I prefer the Desert layout there.

Best of luck on the course and on the tables!

P.S. I almost forgot -- go to the Paiute Resort about 20 miles North of Vegas and play the Pete Dye Wolf Course. It's one of the best in the state and a real test when the wind blows which it does often.

[THuckaby2]

MB:

I was told at Shadow Creek that they make NO exceptions to the "must stay at one of the Mirage resorts" rule.  Of course if you can afford the kind of gambling stake that gets you VIP privileges at casinos, and you're willing to pay the $500 fee, you can afford to move over from Caesar's for one night... but it was stressed to me with certainty that this rule is hard and fast for everyone.  The list of celebrities and politicians who were turned down for this reason was impressive.

Matt's take on all the rest is right on, as usual!

But re Shadow, if you wanna play, go stay at Mirage or Bellagio or MGM Grande or one of several others... here's a web site that will tell you all about it.

TH

http://www.mgmmirage.com/

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