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Adam_F_Collins

Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« on: January 20, 2006, 10:07:32 PM »
California, USGA, "Push-Up" greens (if they're different). How much do they genereally cost to build? (per green)

Are there variations in technology/material which vary this price?

What are some of the numbers?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2006, 10:22:25 PM »
A single new USGA green on an existing course can cost $75,000 or more.  

If you're building 18 of them on a new course, so you don't have to tiptoe around the grass everywhere, that cost comes down considerably ... it could be anything from $20,000 to $50,000 per green, depending mostly on the delivered cost of the sand.

Or, if you're working in perfect sandy material [like Sand Hills or even Lost Dunes], the cost is only for shaping, soil amendments and seeding ... less than $1,000 per green plus whatever you want to say the shaping cost.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2006, 10:30:20 PM »
hmm, no wonder a golf course developer gets tingly when they find sandy soil on their site.

How much does sand go for?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2006, 10:36:21 PM »
The least we've paid for greens mix sand (delivered to the site) was $8 per ton.  The most was about $40, although I have heard that greens mix sand can cost $100 per ton in Bermuda or Hawaii.

It takes about 250-300 cubic yards of sand to build each green, so once you include the putting green, about 5000-6000 cubic yards for a typical course.  Sand tees require about half as much material -- you need pretty close to the same square footage, but you don't put the mix as deep because you don't cut cups in tees!

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2006, 10:37:51 PM »
So how does a cubic yard compare to a ton?

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2006, 10:38:27 PM »
And has anyone seen and read this Hurdzan book on golf greens? How is it?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2006, 10:42:26 PM »
1 cubic yard = 1.3 tons.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2006, 11:18:07 PM »
1 cubic yard will spread 108 square feet, 3 inches deep.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Jari Rasinkangas

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2006, 09:41:44 AM »
Adam,

Hurdzan book on golf greens is very good reading.  It describes the history of greens, many different technical solutions, new research results etc.  It also shows many practical solutions and also criticism against USGA method.

The chapters of the book are:

1. Evolution of the Golf Green
2. Golf Green Theories
3. Design Considerations for Golf Greens
4. Making Intelligent Compromises in Green Construction
5. Green Construction Techniques
6. Rootzone Sampling, Testing and Evaluation
7. Selecting Turfgrasses or Artificial Turf for Greens
8. Legal Liabilities of Golf Green Construction
9. Postscript: My Personal Experiences Building Golf Greens and the Future of Greens

Jari

Scott Witter

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2006, 11:27:15 AM »
Adam,

"California" greens and I give it quotation marks because this can mean differen things to many architects and builders, are normally less money to build than USGA greens largely because they don't have as strict adherence to protocol with respect to construction techniques and depth of materials in their profile.  Hurdzan is a huge proponent of California greens, probably why you read such criticisim of USGA greens in his book. Also CG simply don't have as many different materials as USGA greens.  You can see this in Hurdzan's book or by going to the USGA web site call up the Green section and look up greens construction.  I believe they still have a good segment which shows their "proven" methodology.

Tom's 75K figure for a USGA green on an existing course is certainly possible to obtain, however, we have built many and they were deep in the course and hard to get to, that cost much less, around 50-55K.  Some of this cost is obviously related to location in the country, availability of materials, etc.  You have to also know that Tom's figure can mean that there may have been considerable shaping involved, the putting surface size could have been very large, it could have been difficult to get construction materials to the green site and as he said, the sand could have cost $40/ton.  So at 40/ton for a 6000 SF green, 300 tons of sand alone would be $12K, though I have to say I have rarely been able to build a 6000 SF green using only 300 ton of sand.  For some reason they seem to swallow up the sand and it usually takes around 325 to 340 tons, about a truck or two more.

Under most circumstances, unless we are required to do otherwise for permitting/environmental restrictions we build California or a "modified" USGA greens.  Their costs can range around 17K to 30K on a new course and a bit more for reasons explained on an existing course.

Push Up greens are something different again and this depends on the quality of the existing materials onsite regarding their internal drainage properties, compactability factor and many other performance characteristics which again mean different things to the final product, to those who choose to use them and to the budget for obvious reasons.
As it has been discussed here before, a push up green could be made of just topsoil, all sand, a mix of topsoil and sand, any of which can yield good to excellent results depending on the performance desired, how and with what equipment was used to build them and the ability of the superintendents to manage them based on their owners expectations.


Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2006, 11:37:52 AM »
One thing to be aware of is the degree of moisture in the delivered sand.  Ton refers to weight and cubic yards is volume.  Make sure that you are not buying water instead of sand!  

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2006, 04:10:26 PM »
Push Up greens are something different again ... As it has been discussed here before, a push up green could be made of just topsoil, all sand, a mix of topsoil and sand, any of which can yield good to excellent results depending on the performance desired, how and with what equipment was used to build them and the ability of the superintendents to manage them based on their owners expectations.

Scott,

I get the sense here that there are many ways to build a green and many factors which come into play on how they chould be constructed. If a person where to boil green construction down to the essentials, what are they? What are the necessary parameters of the materials and the structure of the green itself?

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2006, 04:47:42 PM »
Adam,
Boiling it down,

1.Select the best turf suited to your area that will meet the desired expectations while staying within your budgetary constraints.

2.Select a green’s mix that will support your grass choice.

3.Select a method of construction that works best with factors 1 & 2.

Sometimes the availability of #2 will influence #1

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2006, 04:52:08 PM »
Thanks Don, but what does the make up of the green have to do?

ie - It has to support the grass, providing nutrients and water (or is it just water and nutrients are supplied through fertilizers?). It has to drain well to avoid the roots sitting in water... those types of things.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 08:26:40 PM by Adam_Foster_Collins »

Scott Witter

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2006, 05:47:08 PM »
Adam:

Don, not Dan, has a pretty good handle on this.

As Don says, selecting the turf is certainly important, but I think less dependent on how, or with what materials, the green is constructed.  The bigger decision comes back to COST, the architects input (hopefully the owner listens to his/her experence in this area), as they together give thought to; performance expectations and/or requirements, and by that I mean the internal drainage properties of the green profile, the maintenance expectations desired by the owner and techniques available to the super to manage the greens in the long term, the specific site conditions, design intent by the architect, the intended constructiion methodology/approach, the equipment to be used....

As you can see, there are many factors and each with variables which translate into pros and cons of green construction.  In the end, the architect, the owner and the super must decide what is the best approach/technique to use given the set of parameters and costs restrictions, if any, that exist, to build the best they can for the money.  With this in mind, however, each owner should be informed by either their architect or other experienced and knowledgable advisors about the long term costs involved with their decision to build one way or another since each one can have significant consequences on the final outcome and the potential nightmares the owner and the super will face for years to come.

Sure the construction materials "support" the grass, odd way of saying it though, however, the ability of some materials, when mixed together, along with their own internal properties can be better or can be compromised for the need at hand.  I'm not going to get into a real technical discussion, but, water (rain or irrigation) moves through the soil, depending on the engineering properties of any given soil material used, the water will move faster or slower.  During that time period, water is available to the grass plants for their needs.  If the water stays in the green profile too long it can stunt the growth ability of the grass, hey my feet are too wet and I'm getting cold could you please drain away!  There are many other problems which can result from the green profile being too wet, but you get my point. Naturally then, if the soil profile in the green has properties that cause it to compact together too much, the water can't get through the pore spaces and therefore it can't reach down to the grass roots.

There is a balance of soil compactability, enough pore space, internal drainage characteristics which are directly related to pore space and the proportioning thereof, all of which lead to the ability of air and water, which by the way is carrying nutrients, to reach the roots.  Applying ferts are fine, but worthless if the soil doesn't have the properties to allow the nutrients to penetrate.

Whew!  I have said way too much and likely pissed off some superintendent somewhere, so if I have I apologise, but Adam I hope this finally puts your mind at ease.

Good god, I was starting to get dizzy there for a minute...I wonder if this is how Tom Paul gets at times!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2006, 06:17:51 PM »
Adam:

One of the main criteria for selecting a greens mix (not often remarked upon) is that you have to pick something that will survive the construction process.  This is why sand greens became prevalent in the 1960's once heavy equipment got involved.

The older courses generally used some sort of topsoil mix for greens, but they were built with horses and plows and hand labor, and there was less chance for the materials to become compacted during the construction process.  With machines running everywhere, you need something that doesn't easily compact, and sand fits the bill.

The other thing is that "sand" is more or less a uniform substance, though particle sizes and ranges certainly vary.  "Topsoil" has many more ingredients and therefore it's hard to spec and procure the materials with the same degree of confidence.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2006, 10:37:09 PM »
"One of the main criteria for selecting a greens mix (not often remarked upon) is that you have to pick something that will survive the construction process.  This is why sand greens became prevalent in the 1960's once heavy equipment got involved."

Not often remarked upon is right. I thought I'd heard every possible reason why sand greens became the norm, but I guess not, because I'd never heard or read that before. Although it does make perfect sense.

Scott Witter

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2006, 12:09:45 PM »
Don,

The whole compaction issue and a very real one it is, is precisely why many clubs we have worked with who have push up topsoil greens never build them again.  Due to the method/equipment needed to build them correctly and most importantly so they don't compact...lots of hand labor, they become too costly.  I don't agree with their decisions in this regard because it leaves the super with one or two odd green profiles to deal with in a different management approach altogether.

It also seems to be hard to find good contractors who know, or care to learn how to build topsoil greens the right way and not cause them to fail.

The regular consistency of the material "sand" is the secret here, though it will behoove you to get it tested regarding its tendency to compact as well.  Most naturally sands are not graded such that they are perfect for golf green construction and have a natural tendency to compact and lose their internal drainage properties when moved and affected by large construction equipment.  Sand is certainly a good word to hear on a construction site, but not all sand is the same.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Greens: How much do they cost to build?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2006, 08:33:55 PM »
Two questions:

• What is the best way to build push-up greens? (construction and materials)?

• Can other substances such as perlite be substituted for sand? If so, what else can be used, and is it cost effective?


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