[Eric Olsen]

We just returned from a 5 day trip to Bandon, where we played in the following order:  36 on Trails, 36 on Pacific, 36 on Bandon, a 50 minute winter wash/wind out at Sheep Ranch, followed by 18 on Pacific, and a final 18 on Bandon Trails.

This was probably our 9th or 10th trip to Bandon, and we had a relatively unanimous opinion about Bandon Trails that I thought I would post here, being an avid reader of this site.

We liked the first 5 holes, with 3 being the weakest of the 5, but felt like 6 was very derivative of number 4.  Going uphill, we were mostly uninspired but did like numbers 10, 11, and 13.  The flow of the course, however, from holes 12-14 seemed to be completely disrupted.  We did not like the 14th hole at all, and believe that the green should be pushed back and down into the woods so that it is somewhat longer with a blind approach shot.  We also very much enjoyed 15-18, but we were bothered by the proximity of the 17th tee box to the 5th green, which is almost in your line of sight/flight from the left tee box.

Does anyone know if they could have stayed in the dunes and meadow area, or was there not enough land available to do that?  The upper holes just feel like you could be anywhere in the pacific northwest, at least.  

All in all, we thought it was a good but not great course, and certainly not worth missing another round on Bandon Dunes or Pacific Dunes.  The feel of the resort continues to change, but the golf is consistently wonderful, and we are already thinking about our next trip back.

[Brent Hutto]

The feel of the resort continues to change, but the golf is consistently wonderful, and we are already thinking about our next trip back.

So imagine a continuum of evolution from the Bandon resort started the day it opened and with Pebble Beach or Kohler being the other extreme, how far along do you think Bandon stands right now? Half-way there yet?

[Tom Huckaby]

Eric - thanks for posting.  Man you've been to Bandon a LOT.  Good for you, I am very envious.  I've made but two trips there and never got to play as much golf as you did either time.

In any case, though, you make quite a few bold statements.  I'll defer to your knowledge given you have played so many more rounds there than me, but if you wouldn't mind, could you expand a bit on each of these:

1.  Why no love for #12 Bandon Trails? That's the long uphill par three to the huge green, correct?  I rather liked that hole.

2.  People talk a lot about "flow" here and I never do understand what they mean.  Why is the "flow" - however you define that - interrupted at 12-14?

3.  Interesting thoughts re 14 - but man to me that is one very unique green, giving one of the world's hardest yard-for-yard golf shots - that is, miss the tee shot right and you've got one of the hardest 50 yard shots you'll ever face.  Thus to me the hole works just fine as is, and although your idea is intriguing, I don't see the change as a net positive.  Can you explain more?

4.  Explain what you mean by "the feel of the resort continues to change."  I think I know, but want to make sure.  I've noticed a definite change over the years also, want to make sure it's the same sort of change.

In any case, I like Trails a lot.  I like how the feel changes - dunes to forest back to dunes - but I can understand your take definitely.  When I go back, if I have 10 rounds it goes 3-3-3 with the 10th left up to chance - thus I certainly disagree with you saying don't take away rounds at the others in favor of Trails.  Interesting you would say that though, and as I say, I defer to your greater experience.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

The feel of the resort continues to change, but the golf is consistently wonderful, and we are already thinking about our next trip back.

So imagine a continuum of evolution from the Bandon resort started the day it opened and with Pebble Beach or Kohler being the other extreme, how far along do you think Bandon stands right now? Half-way there yet?

OK, I'll jump the gun - this is the sort of change I felt.

And they're way more than halfway, Brent.  I'd say 2/3 at least.

TH

[Sean Leary]

TH,

When was the first time you went? I went the first month it opened and have been back 5 or 6 times since, but not in a couple of years.  I leave to go there tomorrow, so I'm interested in seeing how it has changed from the very beginning until now..

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - I didn't get there all that early - my first trip was right after Pacific opened.  Then I went again in June 2005.  In that time, it went from a nice homey down to earth place to a Pebble-ish feel, full of cigar-chomping megasspenders.  It really wasn't the resort's fault as much as the clientele that had found it, which was bound to happen.  Of course the resort now wisely caters to this clientele... they have to... but still it makes me wistful for days gone by.

TH

[Michael Dugger]

Bandon Trails does feel disjointed, IMHO.  But this was known by everyone going in.  

The dunesland and "Pine Valley waste area" holes are my favorite as well.  I too wonder why the course had to go back into the woods quite the way it does.  It seems like a lot of nice terrain for golf is to the right of #1 and #2 at BT.

   

[Tom Huckaby]

See this is the part I have a hard time understanding.  One man's "disjointed" or "flowus interruptus" is another man's "neat and welcome change".

Must a course really have the same look and feel throughout?  Of course a lack thereof can be horribly overdone, but I didn't get that from BT at all.... I thought it was a cool hike through a coastal forest.

I also enjoyed how different it was from the other two courses there...

Interesting.

TH

[Sean Leary]

Got it.  Just wanted to see what your perspective was, from YOUR beginning to most recent.

When I first went there, the rooms in the main lodge were the only rooms.  The driving range was next to 9 fairway on Bandon.  The greens were so firm they were almost impossible to hold even for a good player. 16 was a entirely different hole, much worse, in my opinion And the caddies were so bad, itwas the blind leading the blind.

And it was CHEAP, at least compared to what it costs now.

[Sean Leary]

Tom,

How do you compare the Flowus interruptus on BT compared to the current SFGC we've talked about?

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - I heard many stories about how it was at the beginning - I would have loved it.  By the time I got there the move toward Pebble-ness had started a little, but not much at all.  It wasn't expensive - not totally cheap, but really no more than normal SF Bay Area golf.

You know how it is now cost-wise.

If you haven't been there in a few years, you likely will notice a distinct change in feel.

As for flowus interruptus, well remember I was very much on record saying I didn't feel it at all at SFGC.  I understood why Adam would and didn't doubt that he did - but I didn't feel it.

Re BT, I felt it even less.  Jeez you see all those trees off in the distance as you stand at the clubhouse for god's sake.  What should one expect, that they'd disappear as you get closer to them?

Same thing went for me at SFGC - I base all of this on look, feel, how the holes play.  I didn't see anything on 13-15 SFGC that was at all out of place with the rest of the course - the holes were just a bit tighter, that's all - and it's not like the other holes are wide open!  

But sure, get me in trouble with Adam again as I'm sure I will be if he reads this.    Obviously that issue will be moot very soon.

As for BT, well... I didn't feel any disjointedness or the like.   Hell I knew the course was going in the trees... maybe this was what Michael meant.  To me disjointed comes from an UNEXPECTED jarring change.

TH

[Michael Dugger]

Beyond being disjointed, the treelined holes do not hold my interest.  They are super wide and feel like exercises in hitting it straight and long.  I mean, how much advantage is to be had being either long, short, left or right on #7?

I like #8, it is a nice and simple short par 4, by nature of being a short two-shot hole, it is strategic.

But #9 is another snoozer.  Whack, whack, wedge.

#10 is ok, at least a little more strategic than 7 or 9, but this hole feels more TPC Sawgrass than Pine Valley to me.  Where am I playing again?

#11 is kinda cool, very wide if you avoid the water.  But still fairly devoid of strategy.  Blast it left center to catch the ridge.  Green opens up from there.

12 is ok, long par threes are kinda rare and therefore a positive by virtue of being unique.  If not for #12, my buddy would not be able to brag about backspinning his 3 wood.

#13 is a great hole, uber penal to the right of that green.  Placing the tee shot is essential on this hole.

But I get a little put out by the huge hike up that hill to the 14th tee.  I like 14 well enough, but I'm not sure this view is worth the hike.  

15 has a dynamite greens complex, IMHO.  I just love all the ruggedness of the bunkers and neat little scraggly trees.  

16 doesn't tickle my fancy either, between hiking up this hole and the 18th, I am fully tuckered at the end of the round.

It is a nice hike through a coastal forest, but so is Cypress Point.  I don't want to knock on C & C because BT is a damn fine golf course, but did they truly capture the best essence of the site with their routing?  I don't know if I believe that to be true.        

[Eric Olsen]

I will respond more later but have limited time tonight (social obligations of my wife's, the fulfillment of which will enable me to play golf tomorrow despite just coming home from Bandon).  I should have also mentioned that they are rerouting number 1 on Bandon Dunes to be a dogleg left, with number 2 tee immediately to the right.  The starter said it was because people keep hitting the buildings.  One option could be to have an upper and lower green, using an upper and lower tee on number 2 as well.  

It also appeared that they had equipment working behind number 12 green on BT.  Perhaps they are just working on drainage or clearing (and there are clearly some drainage issues), but we were wondering if perhaps they would make that a short dogleg left into the trees, instead of the long par three.  You could put the tee box close to 11 green and make a nice risk reward hole.  

I think alot of the changes have to do with the clientele, but it also seemed like the addition of the 3rd course makes it more of a golf resort, with the good and bad that that brings, and less of an escape where you are transported into a world of pure golf.

I suppose flow is in the eye of the beholder, but we had a unanimous reaction that something did not feel right about those holes.  12 is certainly a better hole from the right tee box, where the hole opens up for you better than from the left.  

[Sean Leary]

We agreed completely about SFGC, so that was why I was asking, whether it was similar in you mind in terms of flow change. I agree about the knowing its coming comment. Maybe BT's flow is like at Spyglass, you know the the first holes are on the ocean, then 6 heads inland.....CPC gets away with more than others I guess (from what I have been told,), but I would think an argument could be made there that the change from forest to duns to ocean interrupts the flow as well.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - great call - if these changes are a flow issue at BT, then they also must be at not only CPC, but also Friar's Head from what I hear.  I don't see it at any of them.

Eric - thanks for the reply, look forward to more later if you can.  Just know you confused the heck out of me re #1 BD - are they really going to move the entire GREEN over by #2 tee?  Oh man, that would be tragic... I can't believe it... that green on top of the little hill is fantastic as it is.  

Agreed re #12 BT, btw - but I played it both times from the right side tee box.  Still not sure what your group got that didn't feel right on those three holes though... maybe the huge walk from 13 green to 14 tee?  That does indeed suck.  But to me it's worth it, because I really like 14.  I guess if you don't like 14, then the whole sequence doesn't work.

I think 13's a pretty damn good hole also....

TH

[Sean Leary]

That is shocking to me. Couldn't they leave the green and rerout the fairwayfarther left, or move the tee boxes right to combat that?  That hole gets panned a bit on here, but I really like it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Michael - just saw your post.

First thing's first:  the day I question masters like C&C about routing is the day I cut off an arm.  Who the hell am I to question them?  So I guess that's a big difference here - I assume they're right and did the best anyone could way before I'd criticize.

But criticism is the coin of the realm here, so it's cool.  

Re the individual golf holes, my counterpoint is this:

7 - green is pretty damn unique and great, which makes the lack of much interest on the tee shot work ok.  But yes, that's not among the world's greatest golf holes.

8 - I like it more than you - many choices, great green.

9 - oh man it was way more than whack whack wedge when I played it... it was place drive, try to miss bunkers / hmmm... should I try to get there quandary / different outcomes based on what I did on second.  Again, not a GREAT golf hole but certainly far above average.

10 - agreed re quality, but heck man you've been in the trees for 7 holes at that point, what did you expect to see and feel?

11 is devoid of strategy?  You're losing me there man.  You must play a lot of extremely strategic golf holes.    I played it twice, two very different ways with two very different outcomes.  

12 - no issues.

13  onward - no huge issues really.  Yes it is a very tough walk.  But heck, neither of the other two courses are easy walks.  

So Ok, we're not that far off.  I just remain puzzled by the disjointed comment.  For me, the course went exactly like I expected it to go....

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

That is shocking to me. Couldn't they leave the green and rerout the fairwayfarther left, or move the tee boxes right to combat that?  That hole gets panned a bit on here, but I really like it.

I'm pretty shocked also.  Something's rotten in Denmark/Oregon.

[Eric Olsen]

With respect to BD 1, I did not walk off the distance from the new green, but from the 175 yard tee to number 2 green, the new number 1 green is roughly 30-40 yards directly behind and below the tee box.  It looks like there will be a bunker or two guarding the fairway before the green.  If you recall, there was a bunker on the left side of the first fairway, roughly 240 out, that became a grass bunker. The dogleg left turns right before there, I believe.  I was told that Kidd is designing the hole.  It looks like it will be a good hole, but very different than the approach shot to the elevated green.

[Matthew Schulte]

Any mention on the timeline of opening this new version of the first hole?

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:  if they are building the green now and they seed it in March, it will probably open sometime in July.

That change is being made to try and keep balls out of the pub and the parking lot to the right of #1, as with the original green location many players tried to cut the corner of the dogleg straight for the green.  (In fact, the hole was designed with that option in mind, before the pub was ever dreamt of.)

Regarding the routing of Bandon Trails, originally Mr. Keiser wanted the whole course back in the trees, and Bill and Ben convinced him to let them cross the entrance road to use some of the dunes.  There was not room for much more golf in the dunes.

The sixth and seventh holes play around the toe of the big dune which runs north and south for the whole length of the property, but to get back to the dunes you all like so much, it was inevitable that the other connection would require walking up and over the big dune as you do to the 14th tee.  [It wasn't about the view, Michael.]  Believe it or not, that's the gentlest walk up and over that dune -- it's even steeper to either side.  That doesn't mean it's ideal, but it had to be done, and to criticize it for that means you just don't understand the realities of design.

[John Kirk]

I like #7 at Bandon Trails because I believe it's OK to reward the long hitter once in a while.  It's 440 yards, uphill, with a very wide fairway, maybe 90 yards.  There's a huge left fairway bunker, which can reached with a 285 yard drive.  The green is quite undulating, and there's a considerable reward for an accurate second (or third) shot.  The long hitter gets an advantage here.

I can't believe they are remodeling Bandon Dunes #1 because they put buildings in the way after the course was built.  Really sad.  I'll be very surprised if I like the new hole as well.   An oddity about the present hole is the natural blow out bunkers at the green.  After that, all bunkers use the formalized, revetted style.

One positive note:  The present walk from #1 green to #2 tee is pretty long, which often contributes to early congestion on the course.  It sometimes takes a while to get your round going at a rhythmic pace.

[Eric Olsen]

The starter suggested that they hope to have hole ready for when the full season starts.  They are laying seed down, then sodding over it, in the fairway.  They started number 1 by walking you down the middle of the fairway, where you would be hitting 2 to the green, roughly 135 yards, with all the machines and crew working on the new fairway.  

The walk from the original number 1 BD green to the upper tee box for number 2, off to the right of number 1 green, is much shorter.  We hope they leave an option for playing the upper or lower green, with the corresponding change to the upper and lower tee boxes on number 2, as the upper tee box presents a much different look.

We didn't think the walk up to BT 14 was that difficult, but we wondered why they didn't also put a tee box further back the ridge, to make the walk shorter and the hole longer.   But I'm not sure that would make us (dis)like the hole any less than we did.  

We really liked the way BT 10 forced you to play left to have a good angle to the pin (even though we accomplished that only once), and how difficult the approach was given the bunker and angle of the green if you drove it up the right side, which we did often.  

We liked 11, but felt a waste bunker down the left side might help by punishing an errant drive instead of leaving that side wide open.  

We thought 7, 8, and 9 on BT were fairly basic, with 8 probably being the best of the 3.  

12 just did not do much for us at all, at least from the left tee box.  13 is a great hole, we played it downwind one day and against the wind another.  Very different looks.  

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I liked the option of stopping oin the pub for a beverage while playing the first at BD

I am planning on being at Bandon in July, It would be my hope that the imposing 1st retain that feel.  The 2nd shot on #1 will get anyones attention.  A special place needs an eye opener to get the round started.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is there the same degree of wind at Bandon Trails, or is it muted by the lower elevation, inland routing and trees ?

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