[JSlonis]

GAP will be one of the few Golf Association's to approve the use of "measuring devices" in all its Championships.

Here is a link to the article:

http://www.gapgolf.org/

The Golf Assoc of Phila seems to be on the forefront of allowing this new technology to be used in their tourneys.  I'm a bit surprised actually that the vote to allow them was so overwhelmingly in their favor.

It's going to be interesting to me to see what the use of these devices will do to the overall length of a tournament round.  For the past fews years, rounds seem to be taking longer and longer and I honestly don't think the use of these devices will speed things up.  In fact, I'm afraid just the opposite will be true...it's going to take even longer.  We'll see I guess.

[Jason Mandel]

Jamie,

Are you going to use one?  How many of your fellow competitors do you think will?

My overrall gut is that while a few people will use it, most will not.

Jason

[Rob_Waldron]

The thing that I do not understand is the fact that the USGA has approved the use of distance finding devices as a local rule yet they will not permit their use in USGA qualifying events???

I was rather surprised to see GAP permit them in their events. I also saw the Georgia State Golf Assn. approve their use with the exception of USGA qualifying events. I am on the Board of Directors of the Washington Metropolitan Golf Association and this topic will be discussed at our next meeting.

One question: Can players share devices or are they considered part of a players equipment?

So if I do not have the $299 to pony up for a new Bushnell then I guess I am putting myself at a disadvantage to the field.

[JSlonis]

Jason,

I have a Bushnell device that I usually use during practice rounds to map out a course.  I suppose I will use it during competition when I'm unsure about a distance or if I'm playing an unfamiliar course.  I don't think I'll be using it that often on courses that I really know, but there are a few times when I've played courses that aren't marked all that well, and it would be nice to know for sure the yardage that I'm facing.

Rob,

Your question about the devices use is a good one and one that I thought of right away.  If I have one, will my playing partners for the day also be able to use my device or will they have to have their own?  I'm not that crazy about the idea of having to pass my device around to the other players while I'm trying to concentrate on my own game.  I'm sure there will be clarification regarding this, but there will definitely be an imbalance among different groups on the course.  My first reaction to this ruling is that it's going to be a pain in the butt!

[TEPaul]

You know Jamie, you might be starting to show your age a little bit on this EMD issue as I am. Seems like older guys aren't that comfortable with using this local rule but the younger guys are.

Mark Petersen, the Exec. Dir. of GAP (and the Pa Golf Association) is all for these devices. Mark's been in the position he holds for a surprising amount of time for his actual age and he's still a very young guy as is his staff and they're all really good at what they do as well as being really proficient at computerization and all this modern technology. I guess they all grew up with it more than most of us so they're more comfortable with it.

Mark has great judgment in these types of things in my opinion and he makes a good case for it too. As far as speed of play, Rule 6-7 at GAP or Pa Golf Assoc is not going to take the use of EMD's as any kind of excuse for slow play.

This year while officiating if I see some player using an EMD and taking too much time, I'm goin' up to him and ask him how far it is to that green ahead of him. Let's say he says it's 211 yards---I'm gonna tell him he better be at that green in about 29 seconds or he's gonna get hit with ONE and if he doesn't move his ass into position and on pace on the next hole he's gonna get hit with TWO!  

[Rob_Waldron]

Jamie

I agree that it will probably slow down play and be a major pain in the butt. I found it interesting that one of the reasons given for not approving the use of the devices for USGA qualifying events was that players would have plenty of time and resources to have distances prior to playing the events including the fact that most qualifying events had caddies available........yeah rrrrriiiiiight!

I have been around golf for a long time and I am amazed at how this ruling came about without any apparent demand from golfers. Who or what is the driving force behind this?  Bushnell?

[JSlonis]

Tom,

The only issue I've ever had is that in some conditions...like WINDY...it can be very difficult to get a reading on what your trying to target.  I'm going to get a newer version of the Bushnell which I heard was much easier to use.  In order to keep the device still enough to get a reading, I'm now going to have to find room in my bag for a tripod...will that count as a 15th club?

Has there been any discussion as to the use and "sharing" of these EMD's?  I'm not keen on the idea of while concentrating on my own game, somebody is bugging me to borrow my device.

[JSlonis]

Jamie

I agree that it will probably slow down play and be a major pain in the butt. I found it interesting that one of the reasons given for not approving the use of the devices for USGA qualifying events was that players would have plenty of time and resources to have distances prior to playing the events including the fact that most qualifying events had caddies available........yeah rrrrriiiiiight!

I have been around golf for a long time and I am amazed at how this ruling came about without any apparent demand from golfers. Who or what is the driving force behind this?  Bushnell?

Rob,

I agree.  I don't recall any conversation over the past couple of years I've had with fellow tournament players where we've discussed the fact that we wished these devices were allowed.  I guess it must have been a big deal somewhere, but it hasn't been anywhere I've played.

[JohnV]

The thing that I do not understand is the fact that the USGA has approved the use of distance finding devices as a local rule yet they will not permit their use in USGA qualifying events???

I was rather surprised to see GAP permit them in their events. I also saw the Georgia State Golf Assn. approve their use with the exception of USGA qualifying events. I am on the Board of Directors of the Washington Metropolitan Golf Association and this topic will be discussed at our next meeting.

One question: Can players share devices or are they considered part of a players equipment?

So if I do not have the $299 to pony up for a new Bushnell then I guess I am putting myself at a disadvantage to the field.

Rob,
The reason that it is a local rule is that the USGA and R&A realize that some organziations/clubs want to allow them and that others don't.  That is why it is a local rule instead of becoming the rule of the game.  They choose not to allow them at this time in their events.  They also have said that regardless of what an association might feel, they can not be allowed in qualifiers for USGA events.

NCGA and Arizona GA are also allowing them in their events.  Oregon is not.  Southern Cal has said that they are ok in the California Golf Assocation events, but haven't ruled on their own events yet.  Each association will make up its own collective mind and probably put something on their website as they do.

As for borrowing them, I would have no problem if two players shared one as long as they weren't delaying play in order to switch it back and forth.  Equipment may be borrowed, only clubs can not.

Tom Paul, if a player is on the clock in an event where I'm working, using the laser is part of his 40 seconds.  Just as walking forward to find a yardage marker or to check out the green is part of his time.

[JohnV]

Jamie

I agree that it will probably slow down play and be a major pain in the butt. I found it interesting that one of the reasons given for not approving the use of the devices for USGA qualifying events was that players would have plenty of time and resources to have distances prior to playing the events including the fact that most qualifying events had caddies available........yeah rrrrriiiiiight!

I have been around golf for a long time and I am amazed at how this ruling came about without any apparent demand from golfers. Who or what is the driving force behind this?  Bushnell?

Rob,

The reason they aren't allowed at USGA qualifying events is that they aren't allowed at the championships.  Similarly, carts aren't allowed at qualifiers (except the Senior Ams) because they aren't allowed at the championships.

The demand has been there from clubs, associations and some mini-tours.  

There is a mini-tour in Texas that gave them out to all their players last year.  As I understand it, it sped up play.

There are clubs that were passing local rules to allow them (Latrobe Country Club did it here in Western PA.)  The USGA had been in favor of legalizing them for a long time, but the R&A was opposed.

It's not just Bushnell, its the GPS's in carts, the Sky Caddie and all the rest of the technologies that have become available.  In the end, there really isn't that much difference between electronic yardage devices and marked sprinkler heads, a yardage book or a caddie who knows the course really well.

All the nay-sayers say it will slow down play, but will it really vs looking around for a yardage plate or a specific tree that might be in your yardage book and then pacing off from there?

[Michael Hayes]

Both the PNWGA and the WSGA are allowing them in competition...

[Rob_Waldron]

John

Just the fact that you identified several Associations going in different directions on the issue proves that confusion has already set in. What ever happened to "Hit it" "Find it" "Hit it Again"??

I honestly have not heard any swell among golfers seeking to have these devices available for tournament play. It raises the possibility of inequity among the field.

If cart with GPS are permitted in a tournament what happens to the guy whose GSP system goes down during play. Does he delay play by driving back to the clubhouse for a new cart or continue playing without the system available to all other players??

I guess I must fork over the bucks to buy a new range finder to be competitive with other players in the field.

The USGA continues to dodge issues by offering the "local rule" as a way out. This leads to confusion and problems when a course chooses one direction for a local rule and the Association running an event chooses another direction.

For instance we had a course that implemented the local rule for removing stones in bunkers. The Association did not have the rule on their "hard card" and members of the club playing in an event were penalized for removing stones like they do 364 days a year.

The rule appears to be completely uncalled for.

[JESII]

This whole subject has interested me since the USGA made their decision. I have not yet read Mark Petersen's statements about the Golf Association of Philadelphia and Pennsylvania Golf Association's decision to allow them, and I was very curious to hear Tom Paul's opinion due to his lengthy involvement with both organizations as a player and administrator.

I have always felt the GAP kept a very close relationship with, and in support of, the USGA and I simply chalked this move as another step in that direction. Seems like a good position to put yourself in as a local or regional golf association. Then again, maybe that wasn't their motivation at all.

Rob Waldron's position is also interesting as an administrator in an association that has not yet made its decision with regards to these devices. Rob, keep us posted as those conversations down in your area get underway.

Jamie,

I'm with you as far as sharing or borrowing these things with or from a fellow competitor. I do not have one and cannot see asking somebody to borrow their's at every shot along the way.

[Dave_Miller]

You know Jamie, you might be starting to show your age a little bit on this EMD issue as I am. Seems like older guys aren't that comfortable with using this local rule but the younger guys are.

Mark Petersen, the Exec. Dir. of GAP (and the Pa Golf Association) is all for these devices. Mark's been in the position he holds for a surprising amount of time for his actual age and he's still a very young guy as is his staff and they're all really good at what they do as well as being really proficient at computerization and all this modern technology. I guess they all grew up with it more than most of us so they're more comfortable with it.

Mark has great judgment in these types of things in my opinion and he makes a good case for it too. As far as speed of play, Rule 6-7 at GAP or Pa Golf Assoc is not going to take the use of EMD's as any kind of excuse for slow play.

This year while officiating if I see some player using an EMD and taking too much time, I'm goin' up to him and ask him how far it is to that green ahead of him. Let's say he says it's 211 yards---I'm gonna tell him he better be at that green in about 29 seconds or he's gonna get hit with ONE and if he doesn't move his ass into position and on pace on the next hole he's gonna get hit with TWO!  

Tommy:
GAP allowing EMD's.  They must be getting a kickback form the Manufacturer
A true sign the apocalypse is upon us.
Best
Dave

[JohnV]

John

Just the fact that you identified several Associations going in different directions on the issue proves that confusion has already set in. What ever happened to "Hit it" "Find it" "Hit it Again"??

No confusion, just different boards.  The fact that different Associations (and clubs) are going different ways just shows why a local rule is needed.

I honestly have not heard any swell among golfers seeking to have these devices available for tournament play. It raises the possibility of inequity among the field.

So do many other things like players taking carts when others prefer to walk (or can't afford a cart for every tournament they play in.)  The rule is needed at clubs all across the country where players want to have them available.  It is not just for tournaments.

If cart with GPS are permitted in a tournament what happens to the guy whose GSP system goes down during play. Does he delay play by driving back to the clubhouse for a new cart or continue playing without the system available to all other players??

The same thing as if his driver breaks on the 5th tee.  It can be replaced if it is done without unduly delaying play.

I guess I must fork over the bucks to buy a new range finder to be competitive with other players in the field.

Your choice.  You obviously think it is an advantage to use one.

The USGA continues to dodge issues by offering the "local rule" as a way out. This leads to confusion and problems when a course chooses one direction for a local rule and the Association running an event chooses another direction.

For instance we had a course that implemented the local rule for removing stones in bunkers. The Association did not have the rule on their "hard card" and members of the club playing in an event were penalized for removing stones like they do 364 days a year.

See Rule 6-1.

The rule appears to be completely uncalled for.

Your opinion, not mine.  The rule is needed to address the reality of golf today.  It clarifies when a device can be used and what kind can be used.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

John,
I recently interviewed Ed Gowan of the Arizona Golf Association and he told me they are most definitely NOT allowing distance measuring devices in any of their competitions. Was there something you saw that said otherwise?

[TEPaul]

Sully:

GAP's board voted to adopt the local rule for DMD's in their competitions in 2006. Pa Golf Association's board voted not to adopt the local rule for DMD's in their competitions in 2006.

My personal position in this vote to adopt or not adopt the Local Rule for DMD's in the association's competitions in '06 was not to argue if I thought the USGA/R&A should have or should not have instituted this Local Rule within the Rules of Golf. My only position was since it is now offered within the Local Rules of the USGA/R&A Rules of Golf as a choice or an option to adopt or not adopt whether the association should use it or not.

In my opinion, because the USGA itself has voted not to use the Local Rule in their own competitions in '06 should not be  constured as some indication that they don't agree with the philosophy of the Local Rule generally. If the USGA/R&A did not agree with the philosophy of DMD's in golf generally then I'm quite sure they would never have voted to institute this Local Rule option for DMDs. So that was my position on the vote to adopt the Local Rule or not.

On the other hand, if I were on the USGA/R&A Joint Rules Committee that has the responsibility to decide to institute a Local Rule on the use of DMDs or not, I'm quite sure I would have both argued and voted not to institute such a Local Rule for DMDs. But I'm not on that USGA/R&A Joint Rules Committee, so my only concern is whether to use the Local Rule or not in our competitions and not to argue if the USGA/R&A should have instituted it as a Local Rule.

My real concern was that the associations that our players will be expected to play in during '06 try to remain consistent as far as adopting the Local Rule or not. Obviously that didn't happen in Pennsylvania and with the USGA so we'll just deal with it regarding the players within the "Condtions of Competition" and with our starters. In the case of the PA Golf Association not adopting the Local Rule for DMDs in our '06 competitions my recommendation will be that our starters remind every group that this Local Rule is NOT in effect.

This is obviously basically the opposite of a Local Rule such as the "One Ball Rule" because if we intended to use it and we forgot to put it on our "Conditions of Competition" sheet we can not penalize a player for violating the "One Ball Rule". But since the Local Rule for DMDs will NOT be on our "Conditiions of Competition" sheet in '06 I do feel some responsiblity on the part of the association and its "Tournament Committees" to remind the players it's not in effect since other associations may be using the Local Rule for DMDs. All I want to do this year is help the players in any way possible to avoid any confusion and get penalized for that confusion.

My general philosophy on golf rules and officiating is that golf competition officials should be as "user friendly" towards the competitors as they possibly can be. This does not mean overlooking any violation of the Rules by competitors, it only means trying to do everything possible to prevent them from violating any Rule of Golf.

On the other hand, after years with these associations on the side of the associations and administering the tournaments, the "Tournament Committees" and the "Conditions of Competitions" I'm a bigger believer than I've ever been before of promoting and explaining to any tournament player that ultimate they do have a responsibility to themselves to fully understand ALL the Rules of Golf and most particularly the "Conditions of Competitions" of any tournament they play in and that includes listening carefully to the Starter's instructions in reviewing the "Conditions of Competition" and anything else that may be notable in a Rules context during that round.

Having played a lot of competitive golf in the past I'm more than aware that many competitors are nervous and often preoccupied on the first tee but if they totally fail to pay enough attention to understand all the ramifications of that day's "Conditions of Competition" then that's their own fault--eg ultimately their responsibility is to help themselves from making a mistake due to lack of understanding.

I wish I had $10 for every time I've told a player on the first tee to come over here and listen to the starting instructions and to read the "Conditions of Compettion" carefully and ask me any questions if he doesn't understand something if he wants to help himself avoid a mistake regarding them out on the course.

[JESII]

I could have sworn I saw that the Pennsylvania Golf Association voted to allow them. My apologies for writing that. I will say (in responding to your last thought in post #16) that there will be a significant amount of confusion within closely tied golf associations such as the GAP and the PGA.

Do you have a sense for how the idea of sharing these DMD's will be handled?

[TEPaul]

"Do you have a sense for how the idea of sharing these DMD's will be handled?"

Sully:

I really don't know about that although we'll all be boning up on all that before this season starts at least just for informational purposes. I'm not that concerned about that right now since the Pa Golf Association is not adopting the Local Rule in '06 so how they are used or shared or whatever doesn't directly effect me or any of our PA Golf Association competitors out there this year. I retired from the Board of GAP and I doubt I'll even be officiating any GAP tournaments this year.

However, having read the USGA's recommended wording for those who adopt this Local Rule on DMDs there are a few things that would give me pause if I was officiating competitions that adopted the Local Rule permitting DMDs.

Are you aware, for instance, that a competitor may only use a DMD that gauges distance only (wind, gradient etc are not permitted). This means that if a competitor happens to buy a DMD that gauges more than just distance he can be disqualified EVEN IF HE DOES NOT USE those features on his DMD that gauge more than just distance. I just know there will be a number of competitors out there that will not be even remotely aware of this rule technicality and they will be both buying DMDs that will be illegal in competition and they will obviously be using them out there unaware of that technical Rules ramification.

Even though I didn't realize this when we voted this is all the more reason that I'm glad PA Golf Association voted not to adopt this Local Rule in '06.  Furthermore, maybe I'll even tell Mark Peterson or Kirby Martin or Dan Burton that this techncial ramification should be pointed out to all GAP competitors and groups by all the staters in all GAP's '06 competitions.

[JESII]

I think at the very least it'll be cause for conversation in the early part of the year when people are trying to figure out what they can and cannot do.

By the way, to anyone that might know, Do any of the DMD brands that are well known include the extras such as wind and hill calculations? I have only ever seen the straight shot at the target kind and the rest is up to you, but it has been a few years since I thought about them at all.

[Brent Hutto]

The most popular current model of laser rangefinder (around here at least) does estimate the effect of uphill and downhill slopes and as such is not allowable under the USGA-approved local rule. Go figure.

[JESII]

Do these 'hill-effect-estimators' attempt to tell you how much longer or shorter a particular shot might play? Or do they just return an elevation change number from the target to your position?

[Brent Hutto]

IIRC, they tell you it's a such-and-such percent slope and they also tell you the distance is 145 but plays 152 for instance. A college golf coach of my acquaintance trusts that advice well enough to record the "plays like" number in his notes for the hole when scouting a new course.

[JESII]

Would that such and such percent slope effect my 8 or 9 iron the same amount of yards as it would my grandmothers 3 wood?

Not trying to be argumentative with you Brent, but I think you can see my point. How much can you really lean on these things?

[wsmorrison]

What is to prevent the slippery slope from being taken that allows someone to develop software that records wind velocity, direction, elevation change, humidity, actual yardage, etc that gives the golfer the most realistic "plays like" yardage on a small handheld computer during play?  

I think equipment such as yardage finders are fine for use during practice rounds but keep all other electronic equipment out of the competitions themselves.  Yardage books are fine but anything else can get out of hand and would not be in the spirit of the game.  

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