Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..

[John Kavanaugh]

I kinda like how Jordan's pop is dressed...and not just because that guy looks like he could seriously hurt me.  He is kinda Hawaii casual...The untucked Tommy Bahamma shirt is ok on the island but a disaster on the continental US..I'm guessing the sandals are on par with denim..

So RJ...would you allow denim if given the choice.  Funny thing, I rarely eat at Country Clubs with my family because the whole lot of them wear denim everyday.

[RJ_Daley]

More O.T. but I had to laugh...

I used the word "____ ring" above, referring to a ring pierced into that bump part of the body on top of the areola... and it came out "logo" ring.  

Not exactly a thingy, but a ringy ding dingy logo ringy.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
You said that "Anytime you're a guest at a club, you have an obligation to inquire about the policies of the club...."
Earlier on I said that I think it's incumbent on the part of the host to inform the guest of any special circumstances.
Either way works for me as they both lead to no surprises.

Jaka,
If an owner fires an architect because of what some           15-year-old-kid-who-doesn't-tuck-in-his-shirt says, then all is lost.
 

[RJ_Daley]

John, we see those cargo pants made of everything from multi colored denim (I think that is brown denim his Pop is wearing) to twill, cotton kahki, to that ultra fabric stuff.  (I don't know fabrics...)  Anyway, if the denim is brown, kahki, light blue, white, does it pass muster, but if traditionally Levi jeans blue, you get the boot?  

If Heidi Klum came into your Club's Sunday brunch next July on a hot day, wearing skin tight designer jeans and a daisy duke tied at the midrift shirt exposing her bellybutton, would you seat her and offer her some berries and cream with those pancakes?

And, I did notice Mr Wall's popeye forearms.  He must be able to schmuck that little white pellet out ther pretty good.

[Michael Hayes]

John,

Yes, this site is known to golf architects everywhere...many of those guys think this site is full of NUT JOBS!!!

I am going on the record, I AM NOT A LEADING CRITIC OF THE GAME OF GOLF!!!!!!!!!!!  I AM A HARDWORKING GOLF COURSE SUPER THAT THINKS GOLF IS THE GREATEST ACTIVITY ON THE PLANET AND GOLF COURSES CAN BE A GREAT PLACE TO SPEND LOTS OF TIME!!!!!!

Michael Hayes

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJDaley,

I used to slice the ball until someone offered some well intended advice on how to improve the flight of my ball.

Helping fellow golfers isn't limited to providing golf tips.

Without constructive criticism, progress is impossible.

P.S.   How is the Sarge ?
        Tell him I was asking for him.

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, I agree.  

Are you speaking of "Major Kaster"... I'll let him know he was demoted.  He was just here yesterday, had a drink, and was looking fit as ever.  He was concerned about Boab.  But I assured him Boab is fine and posting as usual.  He often talks about that bunch of 'maggots' I hang out with on the internet and travel all the way out to Nebraski to play golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJ Daley,

Hopefully, his opinion of our group improved after he met us.
If not, I may respect his judgement all the more.

Again, please tell him that I was asking for him, I enjoyed his company and bantering with him

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Yes, this site is known to golf architects everywhere...many of those guys think this site is full of NUT JOBS!!!

I am going on the record, I AM NOT A LEADING CRITIC OF THE GAME OF GOLF!!!!!!!!!!!  I AM A HARDWORKING GOLF COURSE SUPER THAT THINKS GOLF IS THE GREATEST ACTIVITY ON THE PLANET AND GOLF COURSES CAN BE A GREAT PLACE TO SPEND LOTS OF TIME!!!!!!

Michael Hayes

The contributions of the golf supers on this site are one of the most valuable resources.  Funny thing about supers, you rarely seem them start critical threads about specific architecture.

[Craig_Rokke]

I look at "our responsibilities" as simply being those requisite
of any golfer. And I'm also willing to cut a 15 year old just
a wee bit of slack. Personally, I tucked my shirt in at that age, but I probably slipped up in other areas.

[Jordan Wall]

Hey, you guys are pretty funny

It's Hawaii, and I made sure it was allowed to untuck my shirt, because I dont want to be disrespectful.  The responese was actually, go for it, do whatever you want.  It was quite comforting actually.  My dad is the same way.  He's real laid back and just plays for comfort.  He has a very bad back but plays golf just so he can be with me, which makes me feel pretty special and pretty good.

I like what John K. said, not because he looks like he can hurt me.  I'm not gonna lie, the guy used to play football and bench about 325, but if you knew him you would know how much of a family man he is, and how nice he is to everybody.    I have no problem at all giving my dad a big hug on a golf course because he totally deserves it.

And I do tuck my shirt in on a golf course most of the time...but this is comfort land guys

Oh, and I promise that even though I ride a cart with dad, I walk every other time besides that.  Like I said, my dad has a bad back, so he cant really play without a cart.  But just because in Hawaii I might have been going for comfort doesnt mean I'm not a course critic.  I took those pictures for fun, for rememberance, but to study too.

I had a great time, and I want you guys to know I was not being disrespectful to the courses and I was just enjoying time with my awesome dad on awesome golf courses...

...and I am beginning to learn how funny and nice you guys are, which is cool and makes me happy I joined a site that can be serious but people also really do care...
...thanks guys

[Craig_Rokke]

You have good attitude Jordan. Glad you and Pop can share
some good times on some good golf courses.

[Jordan Wall]

I also find it rude when someone brings along their wife or girlfriend who does not play....I have even seen people bring children.  

John, that's kind of funny because that day in Kapalua one playing partner brought his wife and the other brought his son (see the big bunker picture at #6).  Here's the thing, John.  You cannot always be perfect.  And sometimes you just have to sit back and enjoy life, and this great game of golf.  I know that the wife and son had a great time, and I had a great time being with them.

A word of advice, without being rude, for everybody-

Just ENJOY life and ENJOY golf.  How many lives do you live??  Just one.  So why there are times you have to be perfect, tuck your shirt, be serious, take no mulligans, do it, but just cherish the times you have where you can just enjoy everything without worrying about anything.  It was the greatest joy in the world to see my dad be a kid again playing a great course and not having to worry about his back.

 

And by the way, I brought my dad that day...I had the greatest time of my life...

 

[Andy Troeger]

Just ENJOY life and ENJOY golf.  How many lives do you live??  Just one.  So why there are times you have to be perfect, tuck your shirt, be serious, take no mulligans, do it, but just cherish the times you have where you can just enjoy everything without worrying about anything.  It was the greatest joy in the world to see my dad be a kid again playing a great course and not having to worry about his back.

 

And by the way, I brought my dad that day...I had the greatest time of my life...

 

Jordan,
   We should all be so lucky to have those kinds of opportunities, and they represent some of why golf is such a great game. Thanks for sharing the photos and story behind them.

[Joe Hancock]

Perhaps a different perspective on this:

If I am going to be somewhere that has policies and rules, I will show the courtesy and respect to abide by those policies and rules.

I don't take too much offense at things. But, if I am aware of someone else's discomfort with an issue, I will take every effort to make sure I put myself aside and make their comfort my priority.

John is making a good point here. However, some of our participation in this discussion group may be for very different reasons. Some may have a desire to learn on the hobbyist level, while others may be seeking to learn to affect change in the industry. I don't think there is a universal set of behavioural policies that can apply to everyone.

If I were Jordan, I would make sure I tucked my shirt in and wore more traditonal golf shoes if I were to accept an invitation to Victoria National, just to show courtesy and respect to one of their members who has voiced an opinion on said items.

Peace,

Joe

[Jordan Wall]

I will say this.  Every time I have played a Private Club I have worn slacks, traditional golf shoes, and had a tucked in shirt (BTW those WERE golf shoes @ Kapalua).  I respect all clubs, and all policies, and I had several workers tell me it was OK to be comfy and leave my shirt loose at Kapalua...I just think there are certain times to just enjoy everything, and I thought Hawaii was a good place to do so!!

 

[Robert Thompson]

Andy,

What do you think has had a greater impact on architecture...this site or the Golfweek rankings....I promise you the raters consider themselves nationally recognized architectural critics.

I think Jordan as a poster on this site with a ton of opinions has more impact on architecture than any one rater's vote.

John: That you are so arrogant as to think anyone on this site has any impact on anything is remarkable in itself. I'd be thrilled if you could point out one instance where what you are saying is true. Which architect lost a job because of something posted on this board? For that matter, which architect got a job because of this board? I think you're giving it, and yourself, far too much credit. That, of course, doesn't surprise me.
Why you'd bother to take the time to run down someone as clearly enthusiastic as Jordon, is beyond me.
If the club says you don't have to tuck in your shirt, then who are you to say otherwise? From my understanding, you are a business owner of some sort. I guess you can specifically instruct your employees on how to dress, but talking down to someone about how they appear in photos strikes me to be the same kind of BS you typically spewed before you (thankfully) disappeared from this site some months ago.

[rjsimper]

Being "Allowed to play with your shirt untucked" by the Kapalua staff is far from making it okay, or advisable.

To my knowledge, many of the most revered private course dress codes include collared shorts and bermuda length shorts, but nothing about tucking in.

Does this mean that when I get an invite to Riviera or Sand Hills, that as long as I ask the pro shop staff, and they say I don't HAVE to tuck in, that it's suddenly okay?

I'm onboard with that part of the initial thread query - but not becuase posting on this board puts me in a category where I must adhere to higher standards, but becuase I think that standards have gotten embarassingly low.

My mother wouldn't let me on the course without a tucked in collared shirt, and I'm glad she ingrained that in my head from the beginning.

I played Rancho Park today - the local LA city muni, where flip flops and a t-shirt are "allowed" but I'm in a tucked in golf shirt - that's just golf, as far as I'm concerned.  

For someone so keenly aware of the game and it's history as young Jordan, I would expect that he would aspire to a standard higher than the what is the most minimally acceptable.

[John Kavanaugh]

Andy,

What do you think has had a greater impact on architecture...this site or the Golfweek rankings....I promise you the raters consider themselves nationally recognized architectural critics.

I think Jordan as a poster on this site with a ton of opinions has more impact on architecture than any one rater's vote.

John: That you are so arrogant as to think anyone on this site has any impact on anything is remarkable in itself. I'd be thrilled if you could point out one instance where what you are saying is true. Which architect lost a job because of something posted on this board? For that matter, which architect got a job because of this board? I think you're giving it, and yourself, far too much credit. That, of course, doesn't surprise me.

Well, Nicklaus lost half a job and Doak got half at Sebonack.   I am confident the propaganda spread by this site was at least partially responsible...but we're only talking about the most important project this decade, so what's the difference.

[Jordan Wall]

I cannot help what any of you think, but I will make this clear to everyone.  If I get permission to wear an untucked shirt and be comfortable on a once in a lifetime vacation, then you better know I will do it.  I'm sorry, but it's just starting to get on my nerves that people keep saying I'm not proffessional enough.  ITS FAR FROM THE TRUTH.  Dont judge me by a couple pictures.  The truth is I am very respectful, and I would never do anything that would disrespect a club.  The liitle boy a playing partner brought along was wearing like jeans or something.  BTW, when I played Kapalua I was not a member of this site and did not take things as serious as I do now.  I know that is my fault, but I do not feel anybody should tell me what to wear, how to dress, or how to do this or that when you dont even really know me.  I'm not mad at anyone, but just think about this...that kid you saw that was so polite and had nice slacks and a nice tucked in polo at the country club the other day could have been me.  I almost always wear tucked in shirts, and one day I do not I should not get hammered for it.

And Ryan, by telling me that your mother made you wear a tucked in shirt every time you went golfing affends me very much.  To me you are implying that my mom does not care about what I wear or anything, which is far from the truth.  Before you guys make some of these blasphemus statements maybe try asking me if I always dress this way on a course or something.

Now, on a positive note, to show you all I'm not mad, just a little annoyed, I will say that at least my clothes were matching, and I spent 110$ on those golf shoes two days before I went to Kapalua so I would have some nice shoes to wear while I was down there

[John Kavanaugh]

Jordan,

Do you want to be treated like everyone else on the site or do you want us to walk on eggshells because you are 16....I already know and respect you enought to be honest.  One thing you might not understand is that by paying the club almost $400 you and your dad put them at a disadvantage when you asked if it was ok to be a slob....Sure they said fine, what else are they gonna do.   I think we both have learned a little something from this thread, at least I have learned that if I ever do fork over close to $200 a round a Kapalua I better not expect much more than a day at an amusement park.  Whoopdedoo...

[Jordan Wall]

Why do you have to be such a jerk, John, huh??

You know, those rounds were very special to me and it was not woopdedoo...you go try paying someone 500$ for a couple rounds of golf and then have some one else call it woopdedoo...

...and FYI, I never asked for my shirt to be untucked, so why would you even say such a thing...I was tucking in my shirt before I went to the putting green and was having a little trouble for some odd reason...dad was like, hurry up, and I said I hate tucking in shirts.  Then a staff member walked up to me and told me politely that I didnt have to tuck in my shirt.  A couple other staff people gave me a little wink.  Maybe you should get your facts straight before you get people mad

And John, never ever call me a slob.  I think you are WAY MORE OF A SLOB then me by telling me that I am one when you didnt even know what was going on.  Goodness, stop being such a jerk!!!

[Robert Thompson]

Well, Nicklaus lost half a job and Doak got half at Sebonack.   I am confident the propaganda spread by this site was at least partially responsible...but we're only talking about the most important project this decade, so what's the difference.

Right John. You are delusional if you think Pascucci made his decision based on some post on the Internet. And why don't you just lay off the kid -- you're coming off like that angry old man down the street.

[Jordan Wall]

Oh, and John, please do take my advice.  Just enjoy life man

I dont wanna seem harsh but your really pushin some buttons that dont need to be pushed...

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jaka,
What the heck is a resort if not an amusement park for adults? At least Kapalua has a great roller coaster ride.

Do you think Nicklaus and Doak each settled for half his normal fee? And if either of them did do you think the exposure of building in that neighborhood was worth it?
Do you think it's possible that the owner thought that having both JN and TD design the course would fuel a much larger PR engine than could be created with a solo designer?

If anything, it's the particpation by the architect's themselves on this site that gives it much of it's value in the world of golf.