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John Kavanaugh

Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« on: January 07, 2006, 03:26:59 PM »
Seeing young Jordan with his shirt untucked at one of the great courses in our fine country led me to ponder to what are our responsibilities to the game of golf.  Is it an unsaid rule that once you put yourself on this site as a critic you yourself should be held to higher standards than the average joe.  I say yes and would like to see an outline on minimum requirements for posters at GCA when visiting a course in name or not.  Such rules may be:

Keep your shirt tucked in your pants..
Keep your golf shoes clean..
Don't hit mulligans..
Walk..unless you are a guest then do whatever the host does..don't be a walkybojocky..


Please add your own...
« Last Edit: January 07, 2006, 03:37:32 PM by John Kavanaugh »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Our responsibilites as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2006, 03:36:13 PM »
I also find it rude when someone brings along their wife or girlfriend who does not play....I have even seen people bring children.  

John Kavanaugh

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2006, 03:40:21 PM »
How bout doing a little research before you go...I did a very poor job of such before my recent Chicago trip and apologize for that fact.

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2006, 03:41:20 PM »
John-

I would think that observing a round of golf, while not necessarily playing, might be one of the good first golfing steps a person could take with a well-behaved kid.

Does anyone else on this site play in those golfing sandals, as seen in Jordan's pics? I would think they'd be tough to play in.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2006, 03:45:45 PM by Craig_Rokke »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2006, 03:43:31 PM »
John-

I would think that observing a round of golf, while not necessarily playing, might be one of the good first golfing steps a person could take with a well-behaved kid.

I've never had a well-behaved 10 year old so I don't know...You spend half your time trying not to get them killed.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2006, 03:54:07 PM »
Don't choose what street shoes you will wear that day based on which pair most needs a shine...I've got a good friend that does this exact thing.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2006, 03:58:24 PM »
Jaka,
If I was Jordan's age and golfing in Hawaii I don't think I'd worry about my shirttails.

I've had a few GCAers come to Hotchkiss and they were all perfect gentlemen (oops, shouldn't forget Gib's ladyfriend).

I think it rests on the shoulders of the host to inform their guests of any policies, like no shorts, walking only, etc., beforehand.    

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Kavanaugh

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2006, 03:58:54 PM »
Never tear up more than one square foot of turf on the range..

John Kavanaugh

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2006, 04:02:47 PM »
Jim,

When you were Jordan's age were you a nationally recognized golf critic...In those pictures he doesn't look the part.  We both grew up a long time ago when a young man of 16 would not be allowed out on the course without his shirt tucked in...I'm raising a couple of boys now and it is much more difficult to get this simple thing understood.

Andy Troeger

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2006, 04:03:10 PM »
John,
  I think if you're a guest at someone else's club/course the main consideration should be to treat them and their club as you would want them to treat you and yours (whether it be public or private) if the roles were reversed. I think that covers most of the important points.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2006, 04:14:58 PM »
Jordan looks just like a 17-18 year old, and the way he ought to in my book.  The main thing is that he has a big smile on his face and a big ol arm in arm hug for his Dad.  I couldn't give a rat's ass if he has on baggy shorts, street shoes or an oversized shirt hanging out.  He is clean, and as long as he is polite and respectful to people - the kid is a winner in my view.  

I prefer this to a youngster or adult with a crisp shirt and nicely creased long pants, perfectly balanced logo'd ensemble and matching buffed shoes, worn by a blue blooded swell, who has an arrogant attitude a mile wide and gritted teeth smile/smirk veneer a micrometer deep.

No, I don't advocate bare chested, bare footed, grungy, slacker golf.  I also have disdain for that.  But, class is also like that Potter Stewart comment, "you know it when you see it".  I just don't think class requires wearing a narrowly defined  convention of socially fashionable attire, to shine through.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

wsmorrison

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2006, 04:23:18 PM »
John Kavanaugh is wrong in two regards.  Firstly, being on this site does not make anyone a nationally recognized anything including a leading critic of golf course architecture.  It is possible to make use of this site to learn to be a better critic but it does not come with the invitation to join the site.  Secondly, that his assessment of my/our responsibilites are in the realm of his expertise.  

Kyle Harris

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2006, 04:25:25 PM »
Just lead by example. Not too hard.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2006, 04:25:54 PM »
John,
  I think if you're a guest at someone else's club/course the main consideration should be to treat them and their club as you would want them to treat you and yours (whether it be public or private) if the roles were reversed. I think that covers most of the important points.

Andy,

I don't think the Golden Rule works anymore...everybody's expectations are so low it just leads to more and more slacking.  It doesn't bother me a bit if anyone who plays with me wants to take a cell phone call so does that make it ok for me to use my phone when visiting any course...of course not.  I think farts are funny...same thing..

John Kavanaugh

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2006, 04:27:54 PM »
John Kavanaugh is wrong in two regards.  Firstly, being on this site does not make anyone a nationally recognized anything including a leading critic of golf course architecture.  It is possible to make use of this site to learn to be a better critic but it does not come with the invitation to join the site.  Secondly, that his assessment of my/our responsibilites are in the realm of his expertise.  

Wayne,

Every working architect in the country knows of this site and its content...we are nationally known critics.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2006, 04:33:25 PM »
Jaka,
He doesn't look the part because he isn't one, he's a kid playing around and taking some pictures at a resort course in Hawaii.

My older son spent 5 years in the Coast Guard, is married and a Dad. My youngest is in his 4th year at Syracuse studying building architecture.  Some of the fashion ideas they came home with during their teenage years: earrings, dyed hair, pants down around their butts, shorts to mid-calf, shamrock tattoo, flat brimmed baseball caps wore off kilter, etc.,etc..

I used to go nuts until my wife suggested I look at some old photos of us when we were teens,  I learned to pick my battles.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Kavanaugh

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2006, 04:40:29 PM »
Jaka,
He doesn't look the part because he isn't one, he's a kid playing around and taking some pictures at a resort course in Hawaii.



Jordan started a thread on this site saying his home course is being ruined by housing...an implication against either the architect or the owner.  What if that thread costs an architect a potential job...He has taken the role of national critic.

Andy Troeger

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2006, 04:44:43 PM »
John,
  I think if you're a guest at someone else's club/course the main consideration should be to treat them and their club as you would want them to treat you and yours (whether it be public or private) if the roles were reversed. I think that covers most of the important points.

Andy,

I don't think the Golden Rule works anymore...everybody's expectations are so low it just leads to more and more slacking.  It doesn't bother me a bit if anyone who plays with me wants to take a cell phone call so does that make it ok for me to use my phone when visiting any course...of course not.  I think farts are funny...same thing..

John,
If you prefer then you should treat your host like you think THEY would like to be treated. Its really not that hard with a minimal amount of effort.

I also tend to agree with Wayne. Just because this is a nationally known site does not make us all nationally-known critics.  That's not to say that there arent' nationally-known critics that post here, but I don't think that posting here automatically qualifies us.
...granted personally I'm surprised people are even still reading my posts let alone taking the time to respond!  :o ;D
« Last Edit: January 07, 2006, 04:50:40 PM by Andy Troeger »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2006, 04:49:57 PM »
Andy,

What do you think has had a greater impact on architecture...this site or the Golfweek rankings....I promise you the raters consider themselves nationally recognized architectural critics.

I think Jordan as a poster on this site with a ton of opinions has more impact on architecture than any one rater's vote.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2006, 04:50:50 PM »
I have to agree with JakaB. It angers me when I see kids dressed like that, hats on backwards, inappropriate shorts, digging up the turf on the driving range.

I for one will go up to range attendant and chase em off and have em come back when attired appropriately.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2006, 04:52:52 PM »
JakaB,

Anytime you're a guest at a club, you have an obligation to inquire about the policies of the club.  That applies to dress code, cell phones, etc., etc..

Clubs now have to remind members and guests vis a vis news letters that hats aren't worn indoors and that when worn, bills must face forward, that shirts must have a collar and must be tucked in.  All things that members and guests should know.

All too often people are too lazy, or don't care.

RJDaley,

I can understand how you'd feel after looking at the Sarge's shirts for more than a few years.

Your argument is one of extremes, predisposing the audience to choose the lesser of two evils.

I prefer a well attired individual who conducts themselves properly, in accordance with the club's rules.  Those two aren't mutually exclusive.

Jim Kennedy,

I understand the generational gap, but, when in Rome ......

You can't allow inappropriate conduct or dress when the environment dictates otherwise.

I've been to a number of funerals recently and have been disappointed by the dress of the younger generation.  
It shows a lack of respect, laziness and, it's an all about me attitude.   I was further disappointed when cell phone use occured while some wonderful men were being layed to rest.

I've also seen a number of older people "who have arrived" dress and conduct themselves as they see fit as well.

A polite word from the staff telling them that they can't play or visit the golf course in their attire gets the message across to them, their host and other members and guests.

If we want to sink to the levels of the lowest common denominator, all we have to do is to say or do nothing.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2006, 04:54:55 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Andy Troeger

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2006, 05:03:28 PM »
Andy,

What do you think has had a greater impact on architecture...this site or the Golfweek rankings....I promise you the raters consider themselves nationally recognized architectural critics.

I think Jordan as a poster on this site with a ton of opinions has more impact on architecture than any one rater's vote.


John,
  Seeing as I'm not a rater, not an architect, and I don't personally know any of either, I have no clue which would be considered more influential.

   However, I think I could agree with your point except for the word "recognized" in there. When I think of recognized I would think that people from all over would recognize either my face or my name. At this point, the next time anybody recognizes me from GCA will be the first. I'd agree that people that post here in are critics...its just that I don't think most of us are to the level of being "nationally recognized!" :)

John Kavanaugh

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2006, 05:14:33 PM »
Andy,

How long have you been coaching high school golf..

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2006, 05:16:44 PM »
Pat, you may be surprised to know that I am 'generally' in agreement with all the common sense manners that you refer to above.  I don't advocate for slovenliness and this so-called 'slacker' mentality.  You know, the hat on backwards, piercing rings and spiked hair, shoeless, and acting out stupidity of course abuse, lack of consideration for other golfers, loud boistrous, cell phone annoyances, etc.  I hate that!  And, because I play at public and muni courses, I see that all too often.  Atleast our ranger can put the kabosh on the rude or abusive play and has the authority to end their round upon seeing such.  (warnings usually help)

But, this thread started with JK specifically calling out Jordan on the specific example of his recent participation on this forum, his excersising the same privilege we do in offering an opinion, and now his proud posting of his memory photos of Kapalua.  None of which do I find offensive, including his fresh look on the photos.  He sounds like a kid that has interest and enthusiasm for this subject (and some remarkable game for a relative beginer) ;) ;D

Why discourage that with some call-out on his kid's style dress?

In fact, I'd feel more uncomfortable today playing in a foursome with a guy dressed like Tom Watson with his crisp white collared golf shirt and those big bell bottomed gaudy plaid pants with his beetles hair cut we see in early 70s photos, than I would with a guy wearing golf sandals, and a bushwhacker's hat like Jordan's  Pop is wearing in the pics.   ;) ;D 8)

Some guys do that shirt not tucked in routine better than others, and still have all the class in the world.  i.e. Dan King 8) ;D
« Last Edit: January 07, 2006, 05:22:51 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Andy Troeger

Re:Our responsibilities as leading critics of the game..
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2006, 05:24:19 PM »
John,
  I've been coaching for four years...and some of my fellow coaches still can't remember my name! :)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2006, 05:25:40 PM by Andy Troeger »