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Michael Kennedy

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Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« on: January 06, 2006, 09:12:45 PM »
Tom Doak's thread on the relationship of clubhouses to the course and Jordan Wall's thread on overhousing got me thinking about how a course fits into its surrounds.

There are certainly courses that are naturally/visually stunning, but lack much in the way of inspired design.  Although I have not played it, I have heard that Old Head in Ireland is the poster child for this category.

But are there courses built on eyesore-type land which are architecturally magnificent?

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MikeJones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2006, 09:25:56 PM »
My vote would go to Royal Lytham. The course surroundings are anything but inspiring, council housing estates, factory buildings etc.

The course itself  is magnificent.
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Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2006, 09:33:19 PM »
Bayonne Golf Club in NJ just may fit the bill when it opens this summer.

The design looks to be as good as the surroundings are dismal.

Having said that, Clementon in NJ is pretty depressing. ;)

On second thought, so is Augusta...

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rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2006, 09:39:26 PM »
Talking Stick - can't get much more uninspiring than the land around that course
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Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2006, 09:39:46 PM »
The land may sometimes be less than insiring, but sadly it is the buildings that we construct that create most of the eyesores. I for one would rather pass by a grey council estate which is not in any way wanting our attention than some mansion built to be admired from the fairway. 'Ugly' features like steelworks, quarries, massive smoke billowing chimneys, etc, I think can, on occasion, actually add to the experience.
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Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2006, 10:45:31 PM »
Begins and ends with Southern Dunes.  What the hell are those things?
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That was one hellacious beaver.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2006, 11:01:49 PM »
Jeff, what "things?"  Maybe I'm blanking something out but all I remember that was an eyesore at Southern Dunes was all the torn up land for new home building sites and a lot of torn up cart paths where they crossed new roads.  We were walking so that was just annoying.

There sure were a bunch of good golf holes!  I really liked the back nine in particular, good bunch of strategic holes and one little mini-Redan that was really fun.  My tee shot landed as planned way on the right side of the sloped green, ran as planned left and behind the hole, and somehow stopped just inches in the froghair directly above the hole.  Aargh.  The Biarritz green par 5 #16 was really unusual, that is a deep swale.
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Steve Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2006, 11:17:31 PM »
Gateway National on the east side of the river from St. Louis.  One of the best public tracks around with the following as surroundings:
1.  HUGE landfill
2.  auto junkyard
3.  Abandoned factories
4.  Stockyards
5.  Right next to Brooklyn, IL which houses massage parlors, men's clubs and other places not to take the family.

It does have a great view of downtown St. Louis and the arch though.
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Steve Pozaric

Jay Flemma

Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2006, 12:27:20 AM »
I like what Art Spander said about Lytham..."The clubhouse looks like the former residence of Count Dracula, but you really get scared when you see the golf course."

I like Lytham actually...alot.

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rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2006, 12:40:46 AM »
How bout Augusta, GA as a surrounds for ANGC - Never been there, but I hear the surrounding area is...um...modest.
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Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2006, 12:43:58 AM »
The Kennemer in the Netherlands...a terrific links, but the coastal views are blocked by '60s apartment blocks that make Le Corbusier's architectural vision look like My Little Pony stuff. Uuuugly...

Plus there's a big smokestack in the middle distance spewing God-knows-what. Just keep your head down and Kennemer's pretty great, though.
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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2006, 08:29:23 AM »
 Fossil Trace is a perfect example. Good course but awful surroundings on all 4 sides of the property.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2006, 08:30:05 AM by cary lichtenstein »
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2006, 02:34:32 PM »
Quote from: Bill_McBride on January 06, 2006, 11:01:49 PM
Jeff, what "things?"  Maybe I'm blanking something out but all I remember that was an eyesore at Southern Dunes was all the torn up land for new home building sites and a lot of torn up cart paths where they crossed new roads.


Bill,

The "things" are some sort of cage attached to the back of every house; I've never seen these things before.  Really terrific course though as you say, with cool shots and great greens everywhere.  Loved putting and chipping away from the hole and playing the slopes.
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That was one hellacious beaver.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2006, 02:41:55 PM »
Harborsides 36 holes in Chicago is truly awful
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2006, 04:19:26 PM »
augusta National is bordered (on oneside)by Washington Road which has multiple strip malls,restaraunts,and fast food joints.
They are a good 500+ yards from the golf course and COMPLETELY invisible from the course.

On the other side it is bordered by woods,a wooded 2 lane residential road,and Augusta Country,a beautiful parkland course.
The surrounds are invisible from the course except shades of Augusta CC.

Just because you drive through suburbian/urbian blight on the tourist entrance road doesn't qualify it as a gorgeous design on eyesore land-the land,a former nursery is stunning and was before the course was there.
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Michael Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2006, 05:44:19 PM »
Paul - I agree that harborside is nothing special, but I wouldn't characterize it as awful.  A 4 on the Doak scale.

But the land pre-construction (a trash dump) would certainly be characterized as an eyesore.  :o

Jeff - I agree that a few strip malls don't meet the eyesore threshhold.  

Mike and Jay - Having not played Lytham, I wonder if the ugliness around the course evolved after the course was designed?  I guess one could argue that there's no such thing as an ugly piece of linksland, regardless of the surrounds ;)

In fact, I can't really think of a top 100-type course that was built recently on eyesore land.  Althought the idea sounds good - take a blighted piece of property and put it to good use - I suspect that it's very difficult to do (environmental, lack of terrain, safety, cost to make the place look good).

All of this is to say that I really think a course's ranking (official or popularity contest) depends more on it's natural surrounds than people think.

I just saw that the're getting 450 Euros for 36 at Old Head.  Yikes.
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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2006, 08:25:04 PM »
Michael - I meant the area AROUND Harborside is awful, not the courses!

I played 18 when it first opened, which is half of each of the present courses....can't recall much but it was at least okay, at least a Doak 4...a great practice area there too!

a great use of an old landfill!
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Michael Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eyesore Land But Gorgeous Design?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2006, 01:31:15 AM »
Paul - Agreed.  I haven't played Harborside in a couple of years, but I remember a heroic par 3 over water on the back nine of the most southern course (Starboard?).  It's something like 240 yards from the tips.  Into a 30mph wind it was a driver just to clear the water.  THe green and surrounding bunkers/mounding were nicely contoured.

Definitely a good use for a landfill.
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