Are modern architects over thinking the game...

[Scott Witter]

Gladed that helped Tom, and you are partially correct when saying the projects themselves introduce some of the issues that make us "think" more now than before, but would you not agree that design in general was much simplier/easier in the old days, at least for the majority of architects, for pints discussed?

Personally, and even though I haven't seen Stone Eagle, I am glad you were not bothered by the design/safety implications you incorporated and yes, since it is a members course they shouldn't to many problems to worry about.  I guess that is some of what I was talking about earlier.  From observations, studying relationships of features, etc., I can easily find countless similar conditions on many of the classics.  No one can tell me those architects really worried about such things back then, not at least to the degree we do now.

Yahoos and lawyers seem to rise to the surface of this discussion don't they?  But your point is quite appropriate.  Common sense can take you a very long way without much trouble attached, so why are there so many people with good common sense, but seem to have forgotten how to use it?!

Actually, many of the architects in the past used it very well, I think that is largely why many of their designs possess that timeless quality we all talk about so much, but it appears that not as many modern architects use it to their full advantage...well not as much as they should.

Jim T: I like your forward, or shall I say backward (in the past) thinking about development and design.  Clutter and overthinking or as you say "over adding" is precisely much of the problem that many architects suffer from.  Yes,  It is much easier to add, but few know enough to stop before they have cluttered the field.  Quite similar to art isn't it.  The painting doesn't need to be complete in order for us to complete the image in our own minds. But in their defense, it helps considerably to have a good or great site to work with.  Hopefully then, they only need to have good vision and "see" the character and the inherent landscape qualities and work with them, not add to them.

[archie_struthers]

 

Man, I wish I was at Indian Creek right now, its gotta be nice in Miami Beach today! Its awful in Ocean City NJ.


In response to John and Bruce's comments on Twisted Dune, we built it thinking that Caesars or the Borgata (which we knew was coming) would have an interest in the property. This being said, I wanted to give them something that was fun and that we could really tweak for the better players when we pushed back the tees and ramped up the green speed.  As luck would have it, Hilton bought Caesars and eliminated them from the running. (they already had AC Country Club) and the Borgata passed.

Eric Bergstol (Empire Golf) liked what we were doing and became our partner, which took a lot of pressure off. Eric was very easy to work with. He appreciated what we were trying to do, and hopefully got a little inspiration for Bayonne.

Enough people have liked Twisted to make it work as a public golf course. However, I never intended it to be a really busy place, hence the initial absence of many cart paths. The course really walks pretty easily.


I guess #'s 3, 13 and 14 are pretty tough for someone who can't play at all, but you certainly can play the golf course. If anything it might be a little too easy! For instance #9 was supposed to be a long par four, with some inspiration from #5 at Merion. We have played it from the inception as a short five par in deference to our clientele. Hopefully one day next summer/fall we can have a tournament day and really crank it up. When the mini-tour played there last summer it was set up pretty easy.

On a related topic.I'm happy nobody noticed our power lines. LOL

[mike_malone]

 Archie,
     I was going to comment on the unobstrusive power lines at TD on the power line thread , but decided against it. People might begin to think I am on your payroll!

[J_McKenzie]

Scott,

I feel trying to compare the thinking of modern architects with architects from the "Golden Age" is simply comparing apples to oranges.  Golf courses of any type (private, daily fee, municipal, resort) that are being designed and built in today's world are being done so as businesses.  And as such, the bottom line means far more than any architectural element.  

When compared with the Golden Age, the people and their reasons for developing courses today are totally different (with a very few exceptions), the types of people playing the courses today are totally different, and therefore, the people designing and building them today have to have a completely different mindset.  

The biggest problem in modern course design is not that architects are over thinking the game, it's that in some cases, they are under thinking the business.

John

[Scott Witter]

John McKenzie:

I don't believe any of us were COMPARING the actual thinking between the two time periods, this may be hard to convey... I think we are starting to split hairs...but rather the general outlook and approach to design as based/influenced on the particular conditions placed upon each.  Honestly, I couldn't disagree with you more.  I believe there are many talented architects working today who are quite aware of the business end, they have to be if they wish to stay in the profession, while at the same time acutely sensitive to all of the same aspects OF DESIGN on many levels as the "golden age" designers.

Sorry, but I don't think modern golf course design is all that different than it was back then.  Sure the conditions have changed as we have discussed and those are a given, but not the act...the philosophy of design IMO.  Now I said design, not the issues that affected each group of architects.  The modern architects have more to deal with, we have established that such that it affects their thinking, it causes us to overthink, some at least, or as Jim T noted, maybe "overadd" elements that really shouldn't be there in the first place.  To me, the process of design, when I "think" about it and experience it from day to day whether I am in the office or on the site doesn't change, just the varying conditions under which I am working or designing.

To a small degree... I see your point about the bottom line, but I think if you posed this same thought to some of the notable architects, easily those who post on this site they would never agree with you.  Okay yeah, it is in the mix, but there is a balancing act on most projects, but to me, design must always come before the bottom line.  I think there is always a way to achieve at least the flavor of a great design idea if one looks hard enough rather than blow it off because it hasn't got a chance due to the bottom line being compromised.

It is probably in the back of the modern architects mind, not all I assure you, but if any practicing architect is choked with the bottom line and drops their creativity as a result then they are not doing their best work and you don't want them on your project.

I don't think the developers or the architects need to have a different mindset either.  They simply have to learn a few more important issues and be more creative with respect to achieving their and their client's goals.  At minimum, don't you think us modern guys have the same base line set of goals and objectives as the dead guys?  Do you REALLY think design in its pure form has changed that much?  If so, I think you are perhaps more cynical than I am.

Your last thought however, you have a point there.  But in their defense, we are designers, are we the ones responsible for generating the business plans?  Are we supposed to go out and establish the market segment and determine the proforma from which to base the development plan against?  I could go on, but there are many third party professionals who do this type of work long before the architect sets foot in the door.

Hey John, I'm not trying to beat this thing up, but it is an interesting thread and I am one of those "modern guys" and I do think a lot about design, now, back then, and everything in between, that is what I love about it so much, my design thoughts are not limited to any one period of time and even that changes from site to site.