No need to play Pacific Dunes before you die???

[Tim Bert]

I received the book "1001 Golf Holes You Must Play Before You Die" for Christmas.  I spent my first evening with the book looking up famed courses that I've played to see which holes made it on the list.  One of the courses I looked up was Pacific Dunes, and I was shocked to see that it didn't have any holes in the book.  The book is certainly recent enough because there are some newer courses than this in there.  It also isn't just shunning the Bandon Resort because the Bandon Dunes course has some holes in there (although oddly enough it lables two holes from the same course as being part of the 'legends course' and the 'Bandon Dunes course' whatever that means.)  

Of the courses I looked up, this was the only one that stood out to me as being completely snubbed.  I think you could make a case for half or more of the holes on that course to be on this list!

The book does have some nice photos in it, but not a single hole from Pac Dunes???  Anyone know the story behind this one?

Brad Klein wrote the foreward - hoping maybe he'll see this and know what's up...

[rjsimper]

What year was it published (or last updated)?

[Craig_Rokke]

Were holes from other Doak courses well-represented?

[Tim Bert]

Published in 2005.  

Doak is credited (at least partially) in the index with the following holes that appear in this book:
Yeamans Hall Club #6 (restoration)
Apache Stronghold #13
Cape Kidnappers #14
Waterville Golf Links #17 (I'm assuming restoration??)
Cape Kidnappers #17

[peter_p]

Tim,
Have you heard of the Legends Course at Bandon? It's in their table of contents. As discussed on other threads, they could have done a much better job on the book.

[Garland Bayley]

How many minor names are among the names of the architects? On could imagine one way to create such a book would be to get the names of well know architects through the years, determine their best known/respected works, and select a hole from each for the book.

[George Pazin]

Well, there's two Cape Kidnapper's holes listed, so obviously the list is very up to date time-wise, at least.

I don't recall anyone saying Renaissance has worked on Waterville - does anyone else?

Beyond that, these types of lists tend to be as much controversy-seeking as anything else, as it spurs discussion. There's always people that think they can show how smart they are by being different. Someone wrote a short funny piece in Golf magazine a few years back where he talked about the famous multiple course clubs, and stressed how the truly smart play the other courses - you know, something along the lines of, real golfers prefer Winged Foot East, Merion West, Pinehurst #4, etc.

[Tom_Doak]

George:

We consulted at Waterville for a couple of years, but we really didn't do much there.  They wouldn't let us blow up the bad holes, as apparently they have let Mr. Fazio do.  [I haven't seen the course since the recent work.]  I think he removed a small bunker on the 17th which we had tried to fix, but the 17th is still essentially a John Mulcahy / Eddie Hackett hole.

Tim:

Books like that are always missing stuff ... being completely thorough is never easy, and most of that kind are on a tight deadline to be ready for Christmas or Father's Day, they aren't the sort of book which the author has been assembling for years.  The GOLF Magazine's 500 Greatest Holes book was really not much better ... they included a few really awful holes because certain architects nominated their own, but they have to trust their sources because obviously they weren't getting around to all of those courses.  There really is not anyone in the world who has gotten around enough to do a book like that:  I used to be pretty close, but after several years of working for a living I've fallen well behind.

[Tim Bert]

I understand completely that there is no right answer for the holes that belong in this book, and I also understand that slights and ommissions can occur when one is attempting to look at every course in the world.  

I'm just confused how someone could include two holes from Bandon Dunes and be completely ignorant about Pacific Dunes and the holes there.  I'm left to assume that's what happened.  I would be shocked if the author was aware of the course and the holes that exist there and thought "Well, none of these really fit what I'm looking for in this book."

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - the only answer has to be partly what Tom Doak said about rush to publish, combined with perhaps they covered/considered/obtained photos from Bandon before Pacific Dunes had opened, and just couldn't/didn't/forgot to return.

TH

[Philippe Binette]

with the holes at Cape Kidnappers,,, the book could be named 1001 golf holes where you could die....

[Tim Bert]

I was reading the book a little more this evening, and found Cypress Point Club #18 in the book.  I thought this might amuse some of you given the strong opinions about the hole that I've read recently.

Here is part of the comments:
"Of the 18 great golf holes, however, there are some that certainly stand out.  Welcome to one of those standout holes (in reference to #18.)"

I know that many of you here agree that this hole stands out, but for very different reasons than the author intends.  The other holes included from CPC in this book are #15, #16, and #17 - more obvious choices, I'd say.

[rjsimper]

Play 18 at CPC before you die simply so you can post a score from that course on your handicap...that must be what they mean.

What reason does it give for that hole to be on there?

[Tim Bert]

Here's what is says about #18...

"While 15, 16, 17 are more famous, the 346 yard par 4 no. 18 helps complete and amazing series of golf holes.  Most people have read or heard about these holes, and have no doubt seen them countless times on television.  But you must play them to really appreciate them.

No 18 is a dogleg right to an elevated green.  You must hit your drive by the right-hand corner group of cypress trees in order to have a clear view into the green.  Otherwise, you must lay up.

Your approach shot is the big shot here.  You have to carry it up over a big cypress tree that leans out over the fairway and still try to land the ball below the hole because the green is contoured into the natural terrain and severely slopes from back to front.

If it sounds hard, it's because it is hard."

[Bob_Huntley]

Here's what is says about #18...

"While 15, 16, 17 are more famous, the 346 yard par 4 no. 18 helps complete and amazing series of golf holes.  Most people have read or heard about these holes, and have no doubt seen them countless times on television.  But you must play them to really appreciate them.

No 18 is a dogleg right to an elevated green.  You must hit your drive by the right-hand corner group of cypress trees in order to have a clear view into the green.  Otherwise, you must lay up.

Your approach shot is the big shot here.  You have to carry it up over a big cypress tree that leans out over the fairway and still try to land the ball below the hole because the green is contoured into the natural terrain and severely slopes from back to front.

If it sounds hard, it's because it is hard."


Quite possibly, the most peurile piece of crap ever written about the hole.

Bob

[Matthew Mollica]

As I wrote to a friend not long ago, it is hard to publish a golf book I won't consider buying. This is one such book. The holes they have chosen, and those omitted, are sure to astound. Some pictures are good, but the accompanying text astounds.

MM

[Mike_Cirba]

Tim,

I received the book "50 places to play golf before you die" by Chris Santella for Christmas.

It's a cool book in the sense that it tries to be geographically diverse, yet there are many omissions that are obvious and perplexing in their absence.

However, in the long run, I guess the minor gems and obscure courses that are listed instead make it thought-provoking and ultimately probably more valuable than just another tome of the "greatest" courses we all know and love.  

I've yet to peruse the 1001 holes book you mentioned but hopefully it will have similar tidbits that make it similarly worthwhile.

Mike

[Tim Bert]

Mike,

I also received the 50 courses book that you mention, and I've enjoyed it more than the 1001 holes so far.

The one you mention is a collection of 50 people recommending a course to play, so it is a little different approach in my opinion.  Since each individual is just picking one spot, then it is easy to understand how high profile courses could be left off the list.  

The 1001 holes book, in my opinion, is a little different.  By breaking it down to a the hole level rather than the course level, you've got much more of an opportunity to be something closer to an all-inclusive of must plays.

The more I've looked this one over, the more I've gotten the feel of "rushed to publication" that others have mentioned.

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